1980 california Vanagon lugging at midrange?

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cegammel
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1980 california Vanagon lugging at midrange?

Post by cegammel » Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:38 pm

I have a few issues that I need some help with, none of which is consistent...

1. Starting. 9/10 attempts are successful, but then, the key turns, the fuel pump runs, the relay clicks but the starter doesn't spin. I assume a ground issue, or a voltage issue. Suggestions?

2. At midrange, cold and hot, the van seems to lug. The engine seems to consistently increase in speed, but the whole vehicle feels like it is constipated. Bottom end of each gear range is normal. This seems to happen from middle up to shift point. I did a spark plug, valve adjust, and timing check job just before this started...this has so far been an inconsistent problem, but often enough to be annoying.

3. Occasionally, the engine coughs while accelerating and tries to die. If I clutch and feather the gas, I can keep it running, then it runs fine after a few seconds of feathering.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

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Re: 1980 california Vanagon lugging at midrange?

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:40 pm

cegammel wrote:I have a few issues that I need some help with, none of which is consistent...

1. Starting. 9/10 attempts are successful, but then, the key turns, the fuel pump runs, the relay clicks but the starter doesn't spin. I assume a ground issue, or a voltage issue. Suggestions?

2. At midrange, cold and hot, the van seems to lug. The engine seems to consistently increase in speed, but the whole vehicle feels like it is constipated. Bottom end of each gear range is normal. This seems to happen from middle up to shift point. I did a spark plug, valve adjust, and timing check job just before this started...this has so far been an inconsistent problem, but often enough to be annoying.

3. Occasionally, the engine coughs while accelerating and tries to die. If I clutch and feather the gas, I can keep it running, then it runs fine after a few seconds of feathering.

Any help is greatly appreciated!
Help is currently at the border of Florida on I-10.

1) Are you at the threshhold of hot-start issue? That is where the starter solenoid refuses to accept orders when hot. It is due to a breakdown of internal windings that then make the distance between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid problematic. Sometimes, a diligent improvement of all connections from the battery on out to things like starters and their solenoids,and all grounds pertaining to them will cure the symptoms for a while.

2) I can't make sense of "The engine seems to consistently increase in speed, but the whole vehicle feels like it is constipated."

3) Cough. Again I can't discern. Does it hesitate, stumble, buck, die out, lose power but stay running?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

cegammel
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Re: 1980 california Vanagon lugging at midrange?

Post by cegammel » Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:44 am

Man, I don' t know. It may just need to run.

cegammel
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Re: 1980 california Vanagon lugging at midrange?

Post by cegammel » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:51 am

Drove a little today, no issues, except the occasional power to starter issue. I guess I will just keep driving until the dragging becomes consistent. I also don't know how to better describe it. I can't hear a change in the engine speed, but I can feel the car lagging as i push on the gas. There is no stutter or cough, just smoothlag, like a rubber band on the back bumper.

My other issue is not common, maybe once every 6 trips. Then, the engine coughs and tries to die when under acceleration.

All three issues began about the same time. I have proven my electrical ignorance many times, but could all three issues be related to my doublerelay?

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Re: 1980 california Vanagon lugging at midrange?

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:30 pm

cegammel wrote:Drove a little today, no issues, except the occasional power to starter issue. I guess I will just keep driving until the dragging becomes consistent. I also don't know how to better describe it. I can't hear a change in the engine speed, but I can feel the car lagging as i push on the gas. There is no stutter or cough, just smoothlag, like a rubber band on the back bumper.

My other issue is not common, maybe once every 6 trips. Then, the engine coughs and tries to die when under acceleration.

All three issues began about the same time. I have proven my electrical ignorance many times, but could all three issues be related to my doublerelay?
Lagging when you step on the gas would be known as a Huge Flat Spot. That is usually a fuel related issue. Double relays are electrical with much sharper stumbles . . . except for intermittent fuel pump death brought upon by a failing double relay coil. Then it is smoother flat spots but cannot be associated to any particular driving moment, it just dies as it sees fit, then recovers as it sees fit. You can try substituting the double relay with a known good replacement, but make sure all wires leading to and from it are good. You don't want to damage a new or spare unit.

Some Huge Flat Spots are a failing fuel pump that cuts out when hot, then cools off rapidly and comes back on line. The diffeential diagnosis would be that it behaves better when cold and successively worse as it gets hot.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

cegammel
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Re: 1980 california Vanagon lugging at midrange?

Post by cegammel » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:05 pm

I tried to PM, but must have done something wrong....if you will be available next week, I would definitely schedule a day...Dang bug would not start this morning either...

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Re: 1980 california Vanagon lugging at midrange?

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:40 pm

cegammel wrote:I tried to PM, but must have done something wrong....if you will be available next week, I would definitely schedule a day...Dang bug would not start this morning either...
Oh man, these Volkswagens . . . try the available PM (versus email button) button AFTER you click the highlighted name "Amskeptic" under my avatar. It will first open up a member window, then look for the button. You are vaguely close to November 3rdish.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

cegammel
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Re: 1980 california Vanagon lugging at midrange?

Post by cegammel » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:51 pm

I should probably start a new thread...

Both cars, the 80 Vanagon, and the 74 super, have the same starting issue. Full voltage, good batteries, good cables, but the starters do not always spin. Both are intermittent, both have issues only when cold (so far). If I can get them going, they run great. The van will eventually spin if I try the key two or three times. The beetle will without fail spin the first time I touch the key, but if the engine doesn't start immediately, the second try of the key produces no starter spin (but I can hear the choke click, and the dash lights come on).

So: Running a voltage drop test...I have read several explanations of this witchcraft, but I am scared of cooking something. Will one of you sages please spell out exactly how to do a voltage drop test? The last time I messed with this same problem on the beetle, it was a bad switch (in August, I think). At that point, I pulled every wire from the battery to the regulator, regulator to fuse box, fuse box to switch, then back to the solenoid, and cleaned all of the connections. I though I was fairly confident in my wire cleanliness and quality...perhaps not. If the solenoid were failing...would it be intermittent such as this?

I am taking my crate of old alternaters and starters for both vehicles to the local rebuild guy (trying to get there before he retires...), so I should have some spares soon.

The van wiring is highly suspect, but this problem is entirely without precedent. A recurrent and possibly related issue in the van is a no-start when wet. This occurs only after sitting parked in ridiculous downpours. In that case, the starter works, but the engine will not catch.

I am checking schedules and asking time off the week of the 3rd. It shouldn't be a problem, and I have plenty of projects...

cegammel
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Re: 1980 california Vanagon lugging at midrange?

Post by cegammel » Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:07 pm

A 4 hour wiring refresh fixed so many issues on the van. Starter spins so much faster, and the cough seems to be gone. I found that one of the spliced wires to the distributor was not connecting well, so that is hopefully cured. My distributor is very vertically sloppy... and the connector is not the same as that on my spare. So, I need a n oval shaped Bosch connector to try out the spare. Are those things generic?

Now, on to the bug...

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Re: 1980 california Vanagon lugging at midrange?

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:26 pm

cegammel wrote:A 4 hour wiring refresh fixed so many issues on the van. Starter spins so much faster, and the cough seems to be gone. I found that one of the spliced wires to the distributor was not connecting well, so that is hopefully cured. My distributor is very vertically sloppy... and the connector is not the same as that on my spare. So, I need a n oval shaped Bosch connector to try out the spare. Are those things generic?

Now, on to the bug...
Don't worry too much about the sloppy distributor in the vertical direction. There is a spring to keep a positive upward pressure on it.
Go google image searching with different terms. "Hall Effect Ignition plug" ex
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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