83 air cooled CA model starting and idling issues

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83AC
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Location: Columbia River Gorge
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83 air cooled CA model starting and idling issues

Post by 83AC » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:36 pm

So now that we have gotten the bucking to improve, we have a new issue. When the van has not been run for a day or so and we go to start it, we get nothing - no engine cranking. If we keep trying it for a minute, turning it off and then back to ignition, eventually it does start to crank, but sometimes takes a few tries to get it to turn over. Once it is on, it wants to stall several times (8 the last I counted) before eventually getting to a good stable idle. Giving it a little gas seems to help this issue. The problem does not seem to be improving at this point. Once the bus is started and has been running, it can be shut off and restarted without a problem. Colin was here on 7/20 and we did not have this issue, but it had been occurring prior. We did a fuel pressure test and it was within spec while driving and idling, but once we turned off the van, it did not appear that it was going to hold pressure at the correct psi for the correct duration of time.

I have checked the battery when not running and when running and voltages are about 12.8 and 13.8, respectively. I checked the AAF (it checks out electronically and is open when cold) and still need to check the CSV and thermo time switch. The idle control unit is currently bipassed due to the wires beIng corroded and breaking off at the base of the plugs - if anyone knows where I can get new plugs with some length of the wire attached I will be greatly appreciative! I have not yet checked the fuel pump. Given the symptoms I am wondering if it has something to do with the fuel system not getting pressurized correctly, especially if it had lost too much fuel pressure when shut down. On a final note, I know the gas tank has a leak at one of the expansion tank gaskets, and I don't know if that would impact fuel pressure at all? I'm also wondering if having a lower amount of gas in the tank might be impacting this? There is a about .25 tank in now.

Thoughts? Help?
Anderson
Say what you mean; do what you say.
1983 AC Vanagon camper - Penny Lane

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Amskeptic
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Re: 83 air cooled CA model starting and idling issues

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:57 am

83AC wrote: new issue. When not run for a day or so, we get nothing - no engine cranking.
Once on, it wants to stall several times before eventually getting a good stable idle.

voltages are about 12.8 and 13.8, respectively.

I checked the AAF
have not yet checked the fuel pump.
Given the symptoms I am wondering if it has something to do with the fuel system not getting pressurized correctly,

Thoughts? Help?
Anderson
No engine cranking . . . solely battery, wires, grounds, starter. Optimize cleanliness of all connections and grounds from battery to ignition switch and starter.

Stalling until good idle cannot be fuel pump/pressures, etc, because you would have symptoms when warm.
Transient issues relate to transient systems like AAR, temp sensor 2, intake air temp sensor (temp sensor 1), but I think it may have more to do with your current fuel mixture.

If a normal mixture is present, the ECU adds cold assist to it. If you are rich, it adds cold assist to already rich. That could send you out of "normal operating parameters". You need to get your lovely assistant out there to start it for you while you play with the AFM wiper. You are playing with the AFM wiper only to help you analyze the mixture when cold, you are not presently adjusting anything. When she starts the engine, very subtly move the wiper barely a 1/4" CCW to see if it is lean, CW to see if it is rich.
If it is rich, you may find that CW gives you a passable idle now.
If it is lean, you may find that CCW allows it to idle when cold.
Report back.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

83AC
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Location: Columbia River Gorge
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Re: 83 air cooled CA model starting and idling issues

Post by 83AC » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:25 pm

Alright - this morning I could not get her to crank at all, so at lunch I checked battery - checks out good voltage. I then checked for 12V at the ignition switch relay - all good. I then jumped between the red and the red/black wide terminals at the starter - same symptoms: fuel pump runs, no crank. I then checked for 12V at the Solenoid big post - all good. I checked out all the connections and grounds that I could quickly see - all connections at solenoid are gross from previous oil leak. I need to clean them all well, but time was not available at lunch (stupid job). I then tried jumping between the big post on the solenoid and the little one (with red/black wire connected). I got sparks and a cranking (what I believe is cranking, though not really smooth and I was pretty scared to be doing this on my own at the time for the first time, but here I am alive). So I figured, well, F%#@, maybe it's wiring between ignition switch and starter because there is a big taped together mess just below the ignition switch (that I don't have time to explore in the moment). I decided to plug it back together and just see what happened. Of course it started up . . .
I'll be starting her up and hopefully going on a drive for the night and coming back in the AM with her. I'll keep you posted.

Thoughts here? I am thinking:
1. The taped together mess of wires might be suspect and perhaps gets jostled when driving/steering etc. and has a loose connection point in there. The radio does turn off and back on sometimes, as if something gets grounded out when we slow down or turn - but only sometimes.

2. Starter is getting old and gummed up, etc. and then when I did the jump between the posts on the solenoid it loosened things up so I could start it.

3. Obviously my dirty connections are not helping anything, but they aren't the thing keeping it from cranking, unless my bridging the posts knocked some gunk loose in the sparks that created a better path.

Ahhhhh, "it's electric; boogie - woogie- oogie!"
Anderson
Say what you mean; do what you say.
1983 AC Vanagon camper - Penny Lane

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MountainPrana
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Location: Jackson, Wyoming
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Re: 83 air cooled CA model starting and idling issues

Post by MountainPrana » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:58 pm

For the cranking issue you may try putting the vehicle in reverse and rock it back and forth a few times. Back when I was a teenager I had a 65 camper (loved the shelving on the barn doors!) that I had gotten for $400 in Oregon. It didn't run but as the Chinese luck story goes I had just crashed my 64 convertible Ghia on the Klamath River bridge due to Ice (and being young and dumb) and had narrowly escaped getting plowed over by a heavily loaded semi by ping ponging my way back and forth between the guard rails. I bent the steering wheel because I was gripping it so hard. Since I didn't get hurt I had the Ghia towed to Bend where I ended up putting the motor into the bus. Not sure if that is why it happened but sometimes the starter teeth would get jammed in the flywheel and my solution was to rock it back and forth in reverse. Also I would say, never underestimate dirty or loose connections. We had a 1984 Zamboni at the property I worked at in Park City and that thing would just die after 15 to 30 minutes and then start right back up after about 15 minutes only to repeat the cycle endlessly, ever since the motor had been rebuilt. This happened for 2 winter seasons which really made doing the ice rink a royal pain. Finally a group of us were standing around it talking one day, the mechanics apprentice was just fiddling around and was like "hey did you ever notice this slightly loose wire?" Turns out that when the motor warmed up something expanded and the connection was lost killing the motor. Ran great after that was fixed.

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Amskeptic
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Re: 83 air cooled CA model starting and idling issues

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:06 pm

83AC wrote:Alright - this morning I could not get her to crank at all,
I then tried jumping between the big post on the solenoid and the little one (with red/black wire connected). I got sparks and a cranking

maybe it's wiring between ignition switch and starter because there is a big taped together mess just below the ignition switch

1. The taped together mess of wires might be suspect
Anderson
Yes . . .
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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