Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the eng

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Amskeptic
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:36 am

phaedrus76 wrote:
Ronin10 wrote:I might run it if the consensus is that it's original, but I'll have to perma-mark it somehow to replicate key timing positions as I could rub the pain off with my fingernails.
I believe the original timing scale for your '76 is made of black plastic. I can vouch for the accuracy of the repros, but using one and painting the raised numbers and marks white makes for a very readable scale.
The metal scale in the photograph is reproduction. Variations between it and the plastic scale can be partially resolved by bending it.

First, if the plastic scale is a genuine VW (notch at "0" and a rectangular indentation between 25-28* BTDC and indented dots at 7.5 BTDC 5*ATDC and 10*ATDC), do your best to get it installed with the plastic exactly horizontal at the top mounting point. Just snug it lightly exactly horizontal along the bottom surface of the plastic reaching from the scale to the fan housing bolt. This will dictate the position of the scale along the rotational arc. Now rotate engine to set pulley notch under the "0" on the correctly positioned plastic scale. Do not move engine. Now install the metal scale. See if you can bend it to line up its "0" with the timing notch on the pulley.
I put red dot at 28-26* and fill the "0" on metal scales for timing/valve adjustment purposes . . . :

Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Bleyseng
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:27 am

Yeah, I got one of those metal ones from Raby years ago. The black plastic one is in the parts drawer. I always liked the stock white one on the 72-73's....
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Ronin10 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:59 am

Amskeptic wrote:The metal scale in the photograph is reproduction....
I should've been clearer sooner...both scales are metal and the older one from the scrap yard only has painted numbers, no raised/molded/engraved numbers. I did have an original plastic one on my engine before it was rebuilt, but it was heavily marred to the point of being useless so I ditched it. Hence the nice - in appearance if not accuracy - metallic one I have now.

So my conclusion is that this reclaimed scale was a repro and no more reliable than my new repro. I'll have to locate a original one at some point, if only to transfer positions of the marks. Of course, next time I rebuild this engine or another one and have the opportunity to accurately verify TDC, I'll be sure to make scale-independent location marks on the fan shroud itself.

Update on the reassembly of the fan, shroud, etc...found a damaged dipstick boot and missing lower left shroud flap. Still trying to source the flap, but everything else is ordered and on its way. Will be working the CV joints until parts arrive and can reassemble to verify normal operation.

ETA: FYI, while looking for parts, I saw the Bus Depot has new, genuine VW valve covers.
Oscar: 1976 Sage Green Bus, Stock Motor, Solid Lifters, Manual Transaxle

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:13 pm

Ronin10 wrote:Still trying to source the flap, but everything else is ordered and on its way.
Bus Depot has new, genuine VW valve covers.

Make one. Cut up a cheap cookie sheet, tap tap tap a flat section of it on the fan duct, you'll see it imprint nicely, now cut out with snips with proper little ears for the pivot "eyes". Grind smooth and radius the corners properly. Make sure it is 1/16" smaller than the perimeter of the fan housing duct, make sure the hinge pivot is offset from the plane of the duct perimeter so the flap arcs in nicely and closes squarely.

(from November 30, 2007:
Keep the hinges short little ears like the factory did. This keeps the friction down to a bare minimum.
Make sure the hinges fit accurately between the ears of the fan housing hinge pin bosses. The flaps must not be allowed to move sideways too much or they will hang up and stick
Do tap the plates enough to make an impression of the outlet holes. This will help them seal and help them learn to stay centered.
Check that at full-gravity the bottoms of your new flaps are still just above the bottom of the fan housing ducts or they'll hang up.
Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:55 pm

Which one do you need as I have a few.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Ronin10 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:04 pm

I need the more squarish one. I may run back to that junkyard this weekend. There was a nearly complete engine there (where I got the timing scale from) that I bet will have them in place.

I pulled my CV joints tonight and got a closer look at the boots. Both failed identically and if the amount of tear is proportional to the length of time since it happened, then these occurred at about the same time. Likewise, I expect the failure is relative recent as the tears are not complete around the circumference. There's about 20% of material left. Pics:
ImageImage

I noticed that my boots didn't have the two-bolt spacers where they mount. We're these discontinued at some point? I see them referenced in the Bentley, but maybe I should look to get those at the junkyard at well. Could these missing somehow contribute to the tearing? I can't imagine how, but maybe I'm not considering something.
Oscar: 1976 Sage Green Bus, Stock Motor, Solid Lifters, Manual Transaxle

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:57 am

Ronin10 wrote:boots didn't have the two-bolt spacers where they mount. Were these discontinued at some point?
I have them on the BobD, that is is at least as far as May 1978. They do not contribute to boot tears . . .

Some of us have been experimenting with the location of the smaller end of the boot. There is a groove that the boot rides in, I have the BobD boots butting the first bump, not inside the groove. Chloe's are in the groove because the driveshafts are at less of an angle due to a lower sit. Other than that, welcome to the world of substandard.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Jivermo » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:02 pm

Regarding the flaps, I made some out of a sardine can lid (use only King Oscar's). Easy to cut and form, and peen over the opening for a nice indent. Sardines were good, too. Nice golden color.

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by SlowLane » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:53 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Ronin10 wrote:boots didn't have the two-bolt spacers where they mount. Were these discontinued at some point?
I have them on the BobD, that is is at least as far as May 1978.
D'you mean the CV joint lock plates, like the ones here: http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_6 ... plate.html
If so, then yeah, you should have them. All 12 of them. They are there to give the CV locking washers something substantial to bite into instead of the soft sheet metal of the boot shell. Pick up the little locking washers from the junkyard while you're at it. Never know when you might need a spare or five.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Ronin10 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:24 pm

SlowLane wrote:D'you mean the CV joint lock plates, like the ones here: http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_6 ... plate.html
Yep, those are them. I went to the junkyard on Saturday morning and was able to salvage a set of 12 from some early bays. The look a little different, but hopefully the spacing of the bolt holes is the same. I'll find out once I clean them up, probably tomorrow night.

I reinstalled my boots with the inner lip of the boot riding in between the two raised-diameter bumps on the axle shaft. That's where they were before. I debated with myself about moving that edge of the boot over the bump and closer to the CV joint to give a little more play, but gave into the notion that the two bumps are specifically there to locate the inner lip of the boot. If I tear these boots as well, I'll experiment with the setup Colin described above.

No dice on flaps from the junkyard so I'll be fabricating those, doesn't seem to hard. I appreciate Geoff's offer to give me his, but for something so straightforward (and no longer manufactured), I don't want to take his spares. I'll find some legit ones down the road.
Oscar: 1976 Sage Green Bus, Stock Motor, Solid Lifters, Manual Transaxle

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by Bleyseng » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:51 pm

You are supposed to use new Schorr washers on the CV bolts when you install the bolts. Make sure you have good ones atlas and a clean surface on the lock plates so they can dig in. A 914 trick is to drill the heads and run wire thru them all so they can't back out. Nothing worse than a CV coming loose and banging around under there.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by phaedrus76 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:12 pm

Just an FYI - repros of those flaps are available both from VWHeritage https://www.vwheritage.com/shop/0211192 ... r-t2-only/ and German Supply http://www.germansupply.com/home/custom ... hp?cat=369.
76 Sage Green Deluxe Westy w/ manual trans.

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by kreemoweet » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:11 pm

The "lock plates" (those things have gone by many names, even just in official VW documentation) that SlowLane linked to above, from VanCafe, are superior
in that they will fit on the CVJ boots with no interference, unlike the earlier design with a fuller, less angular outline.

Although the Bentley manual states that the CVJ boots with the rubber permanently attached to the metal caps are NOT supposed to have a clamp
installed on the small end, I've seen that provision widely ignored. It would seem that a clamp there would surely increase the stresses on the rubber. I've never had a boot little end that wasn't plenty snug enough to keep junk out, even though it will scoot back and forth a little bit as the axle turns.

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by SlowLane » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:20 pm

Bleyseng wrote:You are supposed to use new Schorr washers on the CV bolts when you install the bolts.
I wasn't aware of that requirement. I've always re-used the old ones. Guess I'll be re-thinking that strategy.

Now, for a little price comparison:
Van-Cafe charges $0.50 apiece for those puppies,
GoWesty charges $0.25 each,
Bel-Metric charges $0.18 apiece for the correct M8 washers in quantities of over 100, but $0.27 each in quantities 1-99.

So, somewhat surprisingly, GoWesty is the least expensive source. I haven't checked the usual suspects like Grainger or McMaster-Carr.

Bel-Metric also has lots of other nifty metric fasteners, but at something of a premium.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

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Re: Massive clanging noise and scraping while rotating the e

Post by THall » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:52 am

SlowLane wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:You are supposed to use new Schorr washers on the CV bolts when you install the bolts.
I wasn't aware of that requirement. I've always re-used the old ones. Guess I'll be re-thinking that strategy.

I haven't checked the usual suspects like Grainger or McMaster-Carr.
McMaster - packs of 100 for $11.71

http://www.mcmaster.com/#93501a030/=10b292o

The bag they came in did say Schnorr even though it doesn't say so on the McMaster ordering info.
'78 Westy 2.0 FI

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