Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

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Jivermo
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Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by Jivermo » Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:21 pm

Happy Thanksgiving, all. Need some help here. I got a call this past week from a couple who are traveling around the country in a very nice 1969 Westy. The were down in the keys, and found me listed on the Aircooled Rescue site. Keith's complaint was a lack of power in the bus. They came down from New Jersey, and ran into problems when they tried to navigate the Blue Ridge mountains. Bus had barely enough power to go up hills, so they came over to the coast and flatlanded it into Florida. When they got here, we pulled the plugs, and found #3 to be quite oil fouled. The electrode gap was also so tight that it very nearly touched the electrode. I did a compression test, and here are the results:
Cylinder 1: 95 cold, 87 warm, 90 with oil squirt.
Cylinder 2: 90 cold, 81 warm, 90 with oil squirt
Cylinder 3: 87 cold, 75 warm, and 75 with oil.
Cylinder 4: 95 cold, 87 warm, and 98 with oil.
This is after a complete cold engine valve adjustment. Engine is a 1600 DP taken to 1776, and supposedly has about 17,000 miles on a complete rebuild. These folks are far from home, with somewhat limited funds. After we buttoned it up, set the timing and idle, it sounds pretty good, but I don't like these figures. What do you all think the next course of actions must be?
I really want to help these guys achieve their goal of this trip, but I'm leery of this engine's future as it is. Your thoughts, please.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:10 pm

Jivermo wrote:Happy Thanksgiving, all. Need some help here.
They need to drive around locally a bit and re-pull the #3 spark plug. A closed gap on #3 may have been a tune-up failure or something hit the plug hard. We need to see if the plug has now cleaned up a bit.
Were any valve adjustments off?
What was the overall spark plug colors i.e. fuel mixture check?
Did you forensicsally check the timing before you adjusted the timing? Was it off? In which direction? Any manifold boot problems? Brake booster hose good?
How is the power now?
ColinPoisedToAssistOnTheRoad
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Jivermo
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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by Jivermo » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:03 am

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Here are the plugs. I'm told they probably have 15,000 miles on them. 3 was all fouled, 4 some fouling but not black, 2 brownish white crusting, and 1 brownish white looking the best.
Timing was off. Idle was high, and the marks were 3-4" to the right; I turned the distributor so the marks came up counterclockwise to where they should be. Idle dropped to around high 900's when I did this. Then I adjusted carb to bring it down. It idles at a lope from about 885-917 or so, but sounds pretty good, as far as our limited knowledge, anyhow. Do I test for manifold boot with carb cleaner spray? We'll look at that and the brake booster tomorrow, cognoscenti. Thank you. Will you be in Pensacola? They are planning to come up that way.

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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by Jivermo » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:29 am

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Update: tested for manifold boot leaks, found none. Put in new gapped plugs, and moved Keith's Dakota digital gauge from plug 4 to 3. 1776 dual port...what should the running temp range on this engine be? I told him it is now going to be different than he is used to. He and Jess took it for a road test on the x-way, and returned with good reports. The bus will now go 65 mph with no problem; previously 50 was about as fast as they could go. Jess said that the engine sounded very good and different-a "metallic" noise that she was used to hearing was gone. Perhaps pinging from the timing being off? Replaced fuel filter, but old one was OK. Keith has to get used to the much lower idle when he starts out in first, as he really did not have to give it any gas before. Today we look for why it is pulling to the left when they come to a stop. The steering wheel grabs and turns, so I'm going to start first on the driver's front brake. Comments? Suggestions? Also, I'm going to check my pressure gauge. This is running so nicely now, I'm thinking that maybe this gauge is off.

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Bleyseng
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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:26 am

Pull #3 and 4 to see if they are oil fouling again. If it's been running with advanced timing for a while they could have broken the rings with all that pinging...(seen it before).

Bleed the brakes as it could be just some air in one of the front lines so one side grabs before the other. Then adjust the shoes properly. Hopefully a cylinder isn't leaking...
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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asiab3
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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by asiab3 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:03 pm

If this bus could talk, it would be verbally thankful to have found you. Keep fighting the good fight; it's very worthwhile to help someone with troubles on a long trip!

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

Jivermo
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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by Jivermo » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:19 am

Image

All fixed up a new Mr. Natural themed name spare tire cover.

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asiab3
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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by asiab3 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:57 am

Jivermo wrote: …moved Keith's Dakota digital gauge from plug 4 to 3. 1776 dual port...what should the running temp range on this engine be? I told him it is now going to be different than he is used to.
I think we'd be wasting their time giving them a hard and fast number. It would be prudent, however, to have them monitor trends; get used to the numbers of flat ground, uphill, and downhill with no winds and make sure that variations in temp correspond with some factor. Applying more/less pedal and ambient temperatures can also make variations. Being aware is more important than sticking to a numerical grid. (Colin's 1600sp readings are well-documented. Mine (dual port, questionable build quality,) runs around 300* + whatever the ambient temperature is at 63mph. So if it's 75*f, I see about 375* CHT on flat ground. Side note, four college students went 18,000 miles across the country last year in a bus they bought sight unseen with nothing but an oil change and a tie-dye paint job. They cruised around 460* on the DD gauge for 3/4 of the trip. The other quarter? Driving from NY to the DD factory :blackeye: BUT They did notice a drop in temps when they felt a gradual loss in power, so the owner knew to check the timing.)
Jess said that the engine sounded very good and different- a "metallic" noise that she was used to hearing was gone. Perhaps pinging from the timing being off?


It's hard to identify sounds by text, but I would definitely call the pinging my bus makes a "metallic" sound. Almost like there's a BB in one of the cylinders.
Keith has to get used to the much lower idle when he starts out in first, as he really did not have to give it any gas before.
Ay, that's how I teach the neighborhood kids standard transmission driving… :drunken:
Today we look for why it is pulling to the left when they come to a stop. The steering wheel grabs and turns, so I'm going to start first on the driver's front brake. Comments? Suggestions?
If it pulls left, then maybe the left front brake is working and the right isn't contributing?

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

Jivermo
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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by Jivermo » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:09 pm

Yes, got the picture, but I wrote incorrectly...it pulled to right. In any event, it stopped doing that completely.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:49 am

Jivermo wrote:Yes, got the picture, but I wrote incorrectly...it pulled to right. In any event, it stopped doing that completely.
I am back in Pensacola as of this morning . . .
Colin
(quite a nasty bunch of spark plugs you photographed there, they only had 15,000 on them? Were they loose? They looked like they had blowby up their shells)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Jivermo
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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by Jivermo » Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:39 pm

No, the plugs weren't loose, but they certainly were dirty. A further note: The best idle RPM set up I could get to was a jumping around of about 885-917, as I noted. I checked the two bolts that hold the carb to the intake manifold, and found that the rear one was loose, and that the stud was spinning. We took the carb off and got it back in so that it is tight, and got the carb back on tight. However, that did not seem to help the idle much. I also took out the jet, cleaned it out and put it back in, but not too tight. Bus seems to run pretty well at the moment. These folks ought to be in the Pensacola area in about 2-3 weeks...let's all hope!

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asiab3
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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by asiab3 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:59 pm

Ay, I had a stud spin so bad on me that I shed a tear, pulled out the stud, and put a bolt through it. Loose could mean a vacuum leak, so I'd take a hack over a lean condition.

Could RPM jumping be a worn distributor? Perhaps the shaft has some radial play that is making the timing take small jumps up and down. Does a timing light on each cylinder at idle reveal any inconsistencies?

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:33 am

asiab3 wrote:Ay, I had a stud spin so bad on me that I shed a tear, pulled out the stud, and put a bolt through it. Loose could mean a vacuum leak, so I'd take a hack over a lean condition.

Could RPM jumping be a worn distributor? Perhaps the shaft has some radial play that is making the timing take small jumps up and down. Does a timing light on each cylinder at idle reveal any inconsistencies?

Robbie
Some rpm jumping is just the measuring device. A nice analog needle gauge naturally dampens fluctuations while those stupid digital gauges just haaave to sample every tenth of a second, pshaw.

You would diagnose a worn distributor with a real timing light and see if there are scattered timing marks, then realize later that was actually excessive crankshaft endplay that causes the distributor drive gear to do a good couple of degrees back and forth . . . that's the downside of that trick brass worm gear.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by Jivermo » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:00 am

They got underway yesterday, and headed out across the Tamiami Trail through the Everglades, where they stopped to camp. I am pleased to report that the bus is running very well. If you'd like to follow their trip, they are on Facebook under, "Pearl the Bus". My hope is that they will meet up with Colin in 2-3 weeks when they will be in Pensacola. Then, perhaps, I'll get a grade on the work done. Since I don't normally work on the carb equipped 1600's, this was a nice learning experience for me as well.

pearl-the-bus
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Re: Thanksgiving Blues-Road Trip-'69 Bus.

Post by pearl-the-bus » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:46 pm

Hi all, I'm Keith, Pearl's owner!
As Ian said, we headed out in a westerly direction across the Everglades, and all was well until the mosquito's ran us out. So we headed to a friend's house in the Naples area. But just as we got into town, I started to lose that new-found power that I was so enjoying!
As I was starting off from a traffic light, I noticed decreased power and heard back-firing. As I looked at the DD temp gauge, I was surprised to see very low numbers, and they were going down! Once I finally got to fourth, I took it out of gear and put it back in, and had my power back- complete with normal temp readings! This continued to happen the last 10-15 minutes of our drive, as i kept hitting red lights. Once it was going good, it would continue just fine until I had to stop again.
My thinking is that for whatever reason, #3 was not firing, which explains why I was seeing the temp go down as I was speeding up. As Ian said, we changed the plugs, so i'm thinking the issue is with the wires?
Any suggestions? Thoughts? Observations? Criticisms?
Thanks in advance.

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