80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

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bosco53
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80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by bosco53 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:21 pm

Hello to all! First I would like to say thanks for adding me as a member!! This is my first journey down the VW lane let alone the air cooled one. I recently left a 15 year love affair with Toyota rockcrawling in the hopes that I could get my very distraught family (due to the recent addition of a little girl with genetic issues) out for more wholesome family fun. What better way to do it than in a VW Westfalia?!?

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Anyways, Ill try to get to the point. Bought a 1980 Westy from Tijuana, Non-op tagged in CA. Made the dumb choice of buying it "as is" saying I would smog it. It ran and drove great. Its failed twice. I replaced the cat, O2, wires, plugs, rotor, cap, oil, filter. The Decel valve was plugged going to the "Y" connector into the plenum. If I unplug the decel valve and route it correctly the idle skyrockets. The timing was WAY advanced. If I set it to bentley, 5 ATDC, it runs like crap and wants to die. If I set it to the Bosch dizzy setting of 28 ATDC @ 3000+ RPM it would do ok. According to my smog results Im running VERY rich. Popped open the AFM and found it had been messed with previously. Adjusted it as per http://ratwell.com/technical/Smog.html#fi and have gone through most everything suggested. The only thing I found bad was the Temp II sensor. Replaced it. Adjusted valves, checked compression, buttoned it all up and timed it with the idle stabilizer plugs plugged together and vacuum advance hoses off the dizzy. Timed great at 5 ATDC and idled and rev'd perfect! Plugged the advance hoses back in and it all went to shit. Idle shot WAY up again. Adjusted the big throttle screw to get it down but even with it screwed all the way in it doesnt help much. The two consistent culprits are the decel valve and the dizzy vacuum advance. I tested the decel valve as stated in Bentley and it checked but could it still be bad? Could my vacuum advance on the dizzy be bad? Is the dizzy bad? Am I bad? :scratch:

I hope thats not too jumbled and confusing. Its late and my IPA is being very good to me. :drinkers:

Thanks in advance for all the ideas and help!
1980 VW Westfalia Air cooled and full of piss and vinegar

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asiab3
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by asiab3 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:39 pm

Hi and welcome! If you bought the bus in TJ, you're likely not far from me (Carlsbad right now.) Which means there aren't too many FI experts in the area, but I think you'll be fine… Especially when you solve these issues yourself! :)
bosco53 wrote: Anyways, Ill try to get to the point. Bought a 1980 Westy from Tijuana, Non-op tagged in CA. Made the dumb choice of buying it "as is" saying I would smog it. It ran and drove great. Its failed twice. I replaced the cat, O2, wires, plugs, rotor, cap, oil, filter. The Decel valve was plugged going to the "Y" connector into the plenum. If I unplug the decel valve and route it correctly the idle skyrockets. The timing was WAY advanced. If I set it to bentley, 5 ATDC, it runs like crap and wants to die. If I set it to the Bosch dizzy setting of 28 ATDC @ 3000+ RPM it would do ok. According to my smog results Im running VERY rich. Popped open the AFM and found it had been messed with previously. Adjusted it as per http://ratwell.com/technical/Smog.html#fi and have gone through most everything suggested. The only thing I found bad was the Temp II sensor. Replaced it. Adjusted valves, checked compression, buttoned it all up and timed it with the idle stabilizer plugs plugged together and vacuum advance hoses off the dizzy. Timed great at 5 ATDC and idled and rev'd perfect! Plugged the advance hoses back in and it all went to shit. Idle shot WAY up again. Adjusted the big throttle screw to get it down but even with it screwed all the way in it doesnt help much. The two consistent culprits are the decel valve and the dizzy vacuum advance. I tested the decel valve as stated in Bentley and it checked but could it still be bad? Could my vacuum advance on the dizzy be bad? Is the dizzy bad? Am I bad? :scratch:
First off, your timing procedure sounds questionable. (Your distributor has two vacuum ports, correct? Make sure they're not swapped; the retard line is always drawing vacuum, the advance line should NOT draw at idle.) Now, the factory timing spec of 5* (if that's what it is; I can't recall it so I'm trusting you,) is with all hoses on, engine idling at about 850 RPM +/- depending on year/transmission. So if you did time it with the hoses off, try it again with the hoses on. Also, none of this will work if the advance can on the distributor is bad (good guess.) Take one vacuum hose at a time, (engine off) and suck on it while you watch the points/module plate. Do they move and does the can HOLD vacuum when you stick your tongue in the hole, like a really thick milkshake? If not, that side of the can is bad. Test both sides. The "Bosch 28* BTDC" is done with both hoses off, and is usually a safe adjustment when distributors and vacuum systems are swapped around, so try both (correctly) and see which makes your engine happiest.

A bad TS2 usually causes a rich condition once the engine is warmed up, so that's good that you caught it.

And for a "first time" ACVW owner, you sure seem to have your head wrapped around more components/functions than I did for years! :compress:

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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asiab3
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by asiab3 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:49 pm

I also wanted to make sure you have Colin's L-Jet AFM guide. Easily understandable, and geared toward making your engine happy, healthy, and reliable:

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=7761
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Amskeptic
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:29 am

asiab3 wrote:I also wanted to make sure you have Colin's L-Jet AFM guide. Easily understandable, and geared toward making your engine happy, healthy, and reliable:

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=7761

Your spot-on technical reply leaves me with nothing to add. I think his vacuum hoses might be on backwards.
Once they are established as being on correctly, the decel valve issue sounds intriguing. If the idle races up when you have the decel free and clear, you have a leaky or stuck decel valve.

Keep us posted, bosco53, the Vanagon is an excellent road car underneath all of the attributes of its interior layout.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

bosco53
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by bosco53 » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:17 pm

asiab3 wrote:
And for a "first time" ACVW owner, you sure seem to have your head wrapped around more components/functions than I did for years! :compress:

Robbie

Thanks for the quick and VERY informative reply!! And thanks for the compliment! Although I assure you, the only thing saving me is my experience from working on Toyota 22RE's for most of my life and the internet. Ive been reading a TON of threads and write-ups on all forums and web pages. In most cases multiple times because I couldnt remember what I read or I was combining information. (I.E. combining the timing procedures of Bentley and the Bosch procedures. :shaking: )

Also yes I am close to you Robbie. East Pt Loma. In fact, one of our favorite hang outs with the Westy is up near there in Cardiff. Lots of fun hanging out beach front all day with most of the comforts of home right there!

To get back to the topic at hand...I only had a few moments to do anything today. I checked the vacuum on the dizzy to your guidance and it checks out. I also did the same to the decel valve not knowing if that would tell me anything and I couldn't blow or suck through either hose so it was closed. Of course I forgot to try swapping the vacuum lines. Ill get that first thing tomorrow. Is there a good vacuum diagram anywhere or a pic of an engine that shows where the lines "should" go? Ive been looking at the one ratwell has up and it almost looks like I may in fact be swapped but its to hard to tell conclusively.

I did adjust the valves again because after my last adjustment they were super noisy. This time was no better?!? Am I doing something wrong? The first time I adjusted them I spaced them at 15mm (.006") that was mentioned in Bentley and also on ratwell. Aparently I did it wrong though? So today I did the actual process Bentley describes; (Im paraphrasing and going off of memory) "Loosen all adjuster screws to where the ball is just at the end of the rocker arm. Turn motor to TDC for cylinder #1. Adjust that cylinder to where the screw just touches the valve and then turn it CW 2 revolutions. Then turn the engine 180* to the next cylinder..." It was quiet as can be before I mucked with it. :angryfire:

Anyways, I re-timed it with the hoses on and idle stabilizer plugs plugged together. Again, idling well but when you rev it it hesitates and lags before it finally spins up? Does that tell anyone anything? Again I apologize for forgetting to confirm if the lines are swapped. I will do that first thing tomorrow after work. Heres to hoping!!! :compress:

P.S. I am also going to study Colin's AFM guide. Thanks for that!!! :thumbleft:
1980 VW Westfalia Air cooled and full of piss and vinegar

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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by bosco53 » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:35 pm

Oh. My. Gosh... :joker:

I have half a mind to delete my last reply to save face but its just too dang funny and ironic not to leave up. Even my wife got a good chuckle.

I made short mention of my family being under some stress in my first post. Well "some" is an understatement. Ill use that as my excuse for lack of a brain. :shaking2: I was looking at some vacuum diagrams and was almost certain that the lines I had were not going to the same places pictured. So I ran out the garage in my boxers and slippers (AKA: flip flops. We spent the last 4 years in Hawaii :flower: ) and had a looksee. Sure as the sun rises my lines are crossed. :pale: And to top it off that silly vacuum diagram I was looking at online is a sticker right there on the left side of my engine compartment. (Do you believe me now that Im an AC NEWB?!?) I dont want to fire it up and mess with it now as it is late and my valves sound like a mess of medieval knights dancing in my trunk but I have high hopes that tomorrow afternoon I will be back on the road! :silent:

Any info on the valve adjustment is still welcome with open arms though!
1980 VW Westfalia Air cooled and full of piss and vinegar

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Amskeptic
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:40 am

bosco53 wrote:Oh. My. Gosh... :joker:

I have half a mind to delete my last reply to save face but its just too dang funny and ironic not to leave up. Even my wife got a good chuckle.

I made short mention of my family being under some stress in my first post. Well "some" is an understatement. Ill use that as my excuse for lack of a brain. :shaking2: I was looking at some vacuum diagrams and was almost certain that the lines I had were not going to the same places pictured. So I ran out the garage in my boxers and slippers (AKA: flip flops. We spent the last 4 years in Hawaii :flower: ) and had a looksee. Sure as the sun rises my lines are crossed. :pale: And to top it off that silly vacuum diagram I was looking at online is a sticker right there on the left side of my engine compartment. (Do you believe me now that Im an AC NEWB?!?) I dont want to fire it up and mess with it now as it is late and my valves sound like a mess of medieval knights dancing in my trunk but I have high hopes that tomorrow afternoon I will be back on the road! :silent:

Any info on the valve adjustment is still welcome with open arms though!
As you read around here, you will find other amazing moments of brain skips, crashes, blue screens, the works.

You have hydraulic valve lifters, I assume? Solid valve lifters are set to .006" clearance at top dead center for the cylinder you are working on. Hydraulic valve lifters are set to 1 1/2 or 2 turns in clockwise at top dead center for the cylinder you are working on. Why, we have a hydraulic valve adjustment procedure right here!

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=11408#p199857
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

bosco53
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by bosco53 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:55 pm

I gotta say, you guys all rock! Great info with links and how to's galore! :cheers:

So I swapped the vacuum lines on the dizzy today and re-adjusted the valves and what do you know?!? Quiet as a dream again AND I got to drive it around and take the family to the beach for a sunset dinner!! I can definitely tell I need to fine tune the AFM and the idle as it is having trouble with power and going up hills. (even more so than usual) But I have super high hopes after some quality time with the AFM that I will be running happy and healthy all the way to the smog shop for a pass!! (I hope! :pale: ) My short term registration permit expires monday and this will be attempt number 3. 3rd times the charm Im hoping!

Any last minute tips on smog prep are greatly welcomed!! Sure wish I had my own sniffer.
1980 VW Westfalia Air cooled and full of piss and vinegar

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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:12 am

bosco53 wrote: Any last minute tips on smog prep are greatly welcomed!! Sure wish I had my own sniffer.
Change the oil the day before - this reduces HCs getting introduced into the intake through the breather.

Fresh clean spark plugs if yours are old - reduces HCs.

Fresh air filter - reduces CO.

Adjust the idle mixture at the AFM to smoothest running, then lean out until the rpms drop, but before the engine starts to shake.

Drive to the smog station only after the engine is fully fully fully warmed. Keep it running if possible to maintain engine temps.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

bosco53
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by bosco53 » Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:57 am

Thanks Colin! Probably gonna hit it Monday. I'll report back with results.
1980 VW Westfalia Air cooled and full of piss and vinegar

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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by bosco53 » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:46 pm

So today I went to town on the AFM adjustment. I checked and adjusted and checked and adjusted again and again. I think I have it pretty good. Of course thats entirely by ear because my auto multimeter RPM function has gone to heck and I dont have an exhaust sniffer. The only thing really going on right now is a quasi starting issue and a mid acceleration hesitation. The starting issue is really confusing me because it seems to not to like to start cold, I really have to keep on the gas to keep it running til it warms a tiny bit. Maybe 30 seconds. But then its done it a few times hot too?

The acceleration hesitation is about mid-range and of course its worse (broader) the high the gear. I think Ive been able to minimize this as best I can with more AFM experimenting. The last run I made it was still there but far less noticeable.

To be completely honest the ONLY thing I am worried about right this moment is it passing smog. (My temp registration expires tomorrow) Im trying to lean it as much as I can because my last set of numbers had it VERY rich but that was also with the distributor vacuum hoses reversed and lots of "cover up" tinkering by the PO. Of course I dont want it too lean either. The timing is correct, the idle sounds ok and the exhaust smells TONS better than it used to. It was VERY potent before I cleaned all this mess up. Ive got a new cat, O2, Temp II, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, oil, filter, valves adjusted. I think Im half full on regular gas. Ill try to burn some more and fill up on premium and then drive some more before I go in.

I dont suppose anyone knows of a shop in or near San Diego with a guy who knows what he's doing with a sniffer? I have one more free re-inspection at the shop Ive been going to but its a test only and he really knows nothing more than performing a smog check. I may try to convince him to run the sniffer and let me adjust. If thats possible?

Anyways, thanks again for all the help and information! Ive been on auto forums for many man years now (mostly Toyota 4x4) and this site is hands down the best with information and friendly help, bar none!!
1980 VW Westfalia Air cooled and full of piss and vinegar

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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:21 pm

bosco53 wrote:
A) acceleration hesitation is about mid-range
B) trying to lean it as last set of numbers had it VERY rich
exhaust smells better, new cat, O2, Temp II, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, oil, filter, valves adjusted.
C) I think Im half full on regular gas. Ill try to burn some more and fill up on premium
A/B) Experiment!
try three clicks COUNTER-CLOCKWISE with the black cog - test drive.
Better? Good. Recheck idle mixture and lean it a bit.
Worse? Go six CLOCKWISE with the black cog - test drive.
Better? Gooder still. Check idle mixture and richen a tad only if necessary.

No change no matter what you do? Put it back to where it was.

C) Premium doesn't do crap for smog readings . . . :blackeye:
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

bosco53
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by bosco53 » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:13 pm

Amskeptic wrote:


C) Premium doesn't do crap for smog readings . . . :blackeye:
Colin
Hahaha! Roger that. :thumbleft:

Is there a way to set it back to factory and start from the beginning? I understand these are produced for many vehicles but there's gotta be a "stock" setting right?

I'll try those experiments in the AM and report back. Thanks again Colin!
1980 VW Westfalia Air cooled and full of piss and vinegar

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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by bosco53 » Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:51 pm

GAH!!! Im so close!!! My numbers dropped by 2/3!! Im well within HC now but I am high on CO both at 15MPH(MAX=1.46 MEAS=3.59) and 25MPH(MAX 1.26 MEAS=3.73)

Should I just lean it out some more? Timing or just AFM? Maybe something else entirely?
1980 VW Westfalia Air cooled and full of piss and vinegar

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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:14 am

bosco53 wrote:GAH!!! Im so close!!! My numbers dropped by 2/3!! Im well within HC now but I am high on CO both at 15MPH(MAX=1.46 MEAS=3.59) and 25MPH(MAX 1.26 MEAS=3.73)

Should I just lean it out some more? Timing or just AFM? Maybe something else entirely?
Lean it out. Make sure engine is fully warm. Did you change the oil? Make sure your fuel tank has not been topped off recently, a saturated evaporative tank can increase CO.
You might barely increase the timing a tad. Did you adjust the timing at 3,400 rpm or did you adjust the timing at idle?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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