80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

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bosco53
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by bosco53 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:08 am

I changed the oil a week ago and haven't driven much. Maybe 75 miles. Should I do it right before going? I timed it at idle. The tank is less than half full. Should I plug the evap return line to the air filter? I read that somewhere. Not sure what it would help or hurt? The engine was hot. It was stupid hot here yesterday in San Diego, I drove around for 20 minutes and then kept it running until the test was over.

Thanks Colin!!
1980 VW Westfalia Air cooled and full of piss and vinegar

bosco53
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by bosco53 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:07 pm

Also, when its nice and hot and been driving a while, it doesnt like to idle down very well. It takes a few seconds? Any ideas on that as well? Thanks!
1980 VW Westfalia Air cooled and full of piss and vinegar

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Amskeptic
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:11 am

bosco53 wrote:Also, when its nice and hot and been driving a while, it doesnt like to idle down very well. It takes a few seconds? Any ideas on that as well? Thanks!
Heck, San Diego? I have been over-stating the warm engine requirement if you are in San Diego at 90*.

If your temps remain in the high 80s you need to get to the smog station *before* the engine gets too warm, as importantly, a hot gas tank will dump lots of fuel vapors towards the engine.

Not coming back to idle may be either a sticking advance unit (there is a wick under the distributor rotor that is supposed to get a drop of oil at every oil change) or too fast an idle speed (make sure it is 1,000 rpm or less).
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

bosco53
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by bosco53 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:02 pm

So I've been trying to lean it out some more and I can't seem to find a place where it's happy. It doesn't like to start in the morning. And then I have to keep on the gas to get it to where it will stay running. In the meantime, even with my foot on the gas it will idle down and try to die. Once it's been running about 30+ seconds it's fine. It spits a mess on the floor out the tail pipe while it's running for the first minute or so. Can't really tell if it's gas or condensation. It doesn't really smell. I can get the hesitation on acceleration to improve by AFM adjustment but can't get it completely gone. Not sure if that's the 009 flat spot or not? I reset the timing at 3000+ RPM with the vacuum hoses on the distributor plugged to 28* BTDC. It settled back down at idle to about 7* BTDC. However Bentley states the CA model should be set at 5* ATDC? Which way is better/correct? It really didn't change how it ran. Not sure if it would impact the smog test?
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:59 am

bosco53 wrote:So I've been trying to lean it out some more and I can't seem to find a place where it's happy. It doesn't like to start in the morning. And then I have to keep on the gas to get it to where it will stay running. In the meantime, even with my foot on the gas it will idle down and try to die. Once it's been running about 30+ seconds it's fine. It spits a mess on the floor out the tail pipe while it's running for the first minute or so. Can't really tell if it's gas or condensation. It doesn't really smell. I can get the hesitation on acceleration to improve by AFM adjustment but can't get it completely gone. Not sure if that's the 009 flat spot or not? I reset the timing at 3000+ RPM with the vacuum hoses on the distributor plugged to 28* BTDC. It settled back down at idle to about 7* BTDC. However Bentley states the CA model should be set at 5* ATDC? Which way is better/correct? It really didn't change how it ran. Not sure if it would impact the smog test?
You need to specifically answer the experiment questions posed further up, or I too will get lost in your wanderings and wonderings.


Did the clockwise or the counter-clockwise cog adjustment improve the acceleration performance?
We do not have an 009 distributor, so we don't have an 009 flat spot.
We have been through the idle timing. You have a *vacuum retard* unit that, if it is working, should bring your idle timing down to 5* AFTER-TDC. Please let us know. You said further up that the idle would not come down, well, the retard unit is a critical part of the idle coming back down. Make sure its hose is not leaking!
Do you think it will affect the smog readings? I'll let you answer that one . . . :blackeye:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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SlowLane
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by SlowLane » Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:47 pm

bosco53 wrote:I reset the timing at 3000+ RPM with the vacuum hoses on the distributor plugged to 28* BTDC. It settled back down at idle to about 7* BTDC. However Bentley states the CA model should be set at 5* ATDC? Which way is better/correct? It really didn't change how it ran. Not sure if it would impact the smog test?
This suggests that the vacuum retard side of your can may not be functioning, or may be getting overridden by the vacuum advance. 7 degrees BTDC at idle would be just about perfect for an engine without the vacuum retard. Understand that the influence of the retard side of the can is very weak compared to the influence of the advance side. Even just a couple inches of vacuum applied to the advance side will overcome even 15 inches of vacuum on the retard side, So if there is even a small amount of vacuuum present at the throttle plate port (by virtue of the plate being held open), then the retard signal might easily be swamped by an unexpected advance signal. To be safest when adjusting the timing, I would even go so far as to recommend removing (and plugging) the advance vacuum line, plug the decal valve to make sure it isn't contributing to the confusion, and time it to 5 deg ATDC with just the retard side of the can connected.

Since idle ignition timing is part of the smog test, yes, having it at 7 BTDC instead of 5 ATDC would be an automatic fail, regardless of how well it runs.

Have you got a MightyVac? They are great tools for diagnosing and learning about the vacuum systems on your car. Get one with a gauge attached so you can do things like measure what the actual opening point is for your decel valve, or see at what vacuum level your advance can reaches full advance. Also great for finding slow (or fast) leaks in vacuum pots. A bit more rigorous than the old suck-and-plug-with-tongue technique, not to mention less toxic.

I strongly recommend checking the throttle cable for any tension on the throttle shaft while at idle, warm and cold. If the throttle plate is being held open by even the tiniest amount, that can throw off your whole ignition timing procedure. Check the action of your throttle shaft and see if there are any "sticky" points where it might catch near the closed-throttle position.
If you wish to dig further, remove the throttle body and give it a good cleaning and inspection under good light. The quality control of these throttle bodies didn't seem that good to begin with, and after 34 years, they haven't gotten any better. While you're in there, consider replacing the throttle body-to-plenum seal. AirHead parts has a quality reproduction seal here.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by bosco53 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:48 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
You need to specifically answer the experiment questions posed further up, or I too will get lost in your wanderings and wonderings.


Did the clockwise or the counter-clockwise cog adjustment improve the acceleration performance?
We do not have an 009 distributor, so we don't have an 009 flat spot.
We have been through the idle timing. You have a *vacuum retard* unit that, if it is working, should bring your idle timing down to 5* AFTER-TDC. Please let us know. You said further up that the idle would not come down, well, the retard unit is a critical part of the idle coming back down. Make sure its hose is not leaking!
Do you think it will affect the smog readings? I'll let you answer that one . . . :blackeye:

So I guess its time to catch up on this a bit.

To start, I could have sworn I reported my findings to the experiment. Alas, I apparently did not.

I also thought I replied to your post apologizing for my wanderings and giving you all my excuses for what my life issues are. Alas, I apparently did not do that either. :scratch:

Anyways, I was able to get it to run a lot better adjusting the black cog 3 clicks CCW. So I left it there for drivability. In the hopes of getting some more progress towards passing smog I ran some seafoam through the motor. Vacuum, oil and gas tank. Strange thing though, when I ran it through the vacuum (distributor hose and brake booster hose) I let it sit for a while and fired it up to start smoking out the neighborhood. Well, there was never any smoke?!? Where did it go? So I still needed to get the rest out of the gas tank so I took the family for a drive. Apparently fixing the distributor hoses REALLY improved my mileage. Took me WAY longer than I thought to run out of gas. This is where the fun begins. Ran out of gas on I-5 south in La Jolla. Pulled over and put it the two gallons of spare I had with me. Crank crank crank...crank crank crank...crank crank sputter sputter...crank sputter...crank crank crank...It never came back to life! Of course its 8pm and I have my girls with me. :shaking: So I start fiddling and cranking. Nothing. Checked for spark at all 4 plugs. Checked out fine. All the connections and hoses were good. Pulled the fuel line from the fuel pump and it had fuel/pressure in it. Had my wife crank the starter with the hose off the pump and nothing was coming out. Tada! Blew out the fuel pump like a dummy. (Or so I thought. Not totally convinced yet) Called a ride for my girls to get home and then called USAA for a tow truck. Almost 4 hours later it finally arrives. I was back in my garage a little after midnight. The next day I sourced a fuel pump. ($$$ OUCH!!) and new filters. Put it all in and started cranking. Again, nothing!! Pulled the hose feeding from the tank and nothing was coming out? I had the van jacked up in the rear so I figured maybe with only 2 gallons in the tank, it was all too far forward? Put it down flat and still nothing. I blew into the hose just out of curiosity and it was bubbling but still nothing. Blew really hard a second time and low and behold fuel came rushing out! :scratch: Plugged the hose back into the filter and after a couple cranks she fired right up. What the heck came loose and clogged the fuel line in the tank?!? So I havent done it yet, but I want to put the old fuel pump on to see if in fact it did or did not actually go bad. Im thinking not. :angryfire:

Back to the saga...

Fiddled with the AFM to lean it out as much as possible and have it still run. Took it to the smog shop mostly out of curiosity. I at least wanted to see a decrease in my numbers. Low and behold to my complete surprise I PASSED!!! And even more shocked, my CO% was ZERO at both 15 and 25MPH?!? Whatever, Ill take it!!!

So I readjusted the AFM to make it run happier. The only things really bugging me now is its incredible lack of power but Im pretty sure thats just the nature of this beast and my cold start issue. Im pretty sure its the cold start valve but I haven't had time to check and confirm yet.

Thats where I stand now. Any more insight and suggested are greatly appreciated but in the mean time I want to thank you all for all your help and understanding! I do again apologize for my wanderings and frustrations. Life is really kicking my family and me while we are down and this definitely wasnt helping any. :pale: Just so happy the smog saga is over for now though. Itll be nice to focus on something else for a change!
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SlowLane
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by SlowLane » Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:14 pm

Plugged the hose back into the filter and after a couple cranks she fired right up. What the heck came loose and clogged the fuel line in the tank?!?
Odds are very good that you have a rusty fuel tank. When the last of your seafoam-laced fuel went down the drain tube, a nice slug of fine rusty residue followed and promptly plugged up the line.

Rusty tanks are very common on the Vanagon. Replacements are available. I bought mine from Van-Cafe. The replacement tanks seem to all come with the smaller diameter fill hole that was used on the later Vanagons, so you would need to source a later filler neck and grommet. The later filler design is a big improvement over the early one, and isn't as prone to leaking at the tank inlet.

Swapping out the tank is best with two people, but it's do-able with one. Just need to be extra cautious to not make sparks.

You should probably check the state of the seals on your expansion tanks too. Mine had deteriorated to smears of tar after 30 years and weren't keeping anything inside.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

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hercdriver
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by hercdriver » Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:50 pm

This is baywindow specific, but the process is universal for POR treating of a funky fuel tank.

http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FuelTa ... ation.html
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:06 pm

Wait!

OK, I read every word of your saga.

That lack of fuel delivery is a typical typical typical lack of prime in a long long fuel run to the engine, particularly when you blow out the fuel pump. You can immerse it in gasoline next time and tap it and tip it until no more air bubbles escape. That thar is a pump primed and ready to go. You can blow into the filler to help pressurize the line to the filter, but you need an open or loose line to allow the air to escape.

If you suspect a rusty tank, let the fuel filter tell you. Dremel a groove around the filter without piercing the plastic, then pry apart for a look-see.

The tank coatings I do NOT trust. When they let go, you are in a world of hurt. Only undertake such a thing if the tank has shown you that it needs it.

Low power can be verified with an acceleration run from 50-60 mph in 4th gear on the level, followed by exactly the same starting point as your prior ending point. If you can do 50-60 in 4th in 8 seconds, you are good, if you can't do it in less than 15 seconds, we need to address.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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SlowLane
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by SlowLane » Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:35 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Wait!
Colin acts as voice of reason.
Amskeptic wrote: That lack of fuel delivery is a typical typical typical lack of prime in a long long fuel run to the engine, particularly when you blow out the fuel pump. ... , but you need an open or loose line to allow the air to escape.
Okay, fair enough, but I took this tidbit from bosco's saga:
Pulled the hose feeding from the tank and nothing was coming out? I had the van jacked up in the rear so I figured maybe with only 2 gallons in the tank, it was all too far forward? Put it down flat and still nothing.
to be pretty clear evidence that fuel wasn't getting to the pump from the tank in the first place. The placement of the fuel pump at a lower elevation than the bottom of the tank in the Vanagon seems to provide a pretty reliable priming mechanism.

Bosco, for what it's worth, if your tank is rusty, it needn't be of immediate concern (provided it isn't rusted through and leaking, of course). It should deliver fuel just fine under normal circumstances for a long time yet.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:42 am

SlowLane wrote: I took this tidbit from bosco's saga:
Pulled the hose feeding from the tank and nothing was coming out? I had the van jacked up in the rear so I figured maybe with only 2 gallons in the tank, it was all too far forward? Put it down flat and still nothing.
to be pretty clear evidence that fuel wasn't getting to the pump from the tank in the first place.
All true. Question for me was, is it air-locked? Maybe too fanciful.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by bosco53 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:05 am

Amskeptic wrote: Low power can be verified with an acceleration run from 50-60 mph in 4th gear on the level, followed by exactly the same starting point as your prior ending point. If you can do 50-60 in 4th in 8 seconds, you are good, if you can't do it in less than 15 seconds, we need to address.
Colin

Ok, back for some more fun. A big thanks to both Colin and Slowlane for trying to help me pinpoint the fuel issue. Its working great for now and Im gonna leave it at that!

So on to the power...yeah...more than 15 seconds eh? Well Im more in the (COUGH) 16-28 seconds :oops: depending on wind, however slight the grade may be, swell direction, tidal shift, and the gravitational pull of Haley's Comet. Ive timed myself several times in different scenarios. I even drove out to the strand in between Imperial Beach and Coronado. Perfectly flat in both directions. The only factor there is if there is wind or not. And yeah, its utterly gutless. I seem to be able to get through the first 3 gears ok, up to about 40-45 and then it takes forever to get to 60-65 and I lose that speed with even the slightest of head wind or incline. The only thing I can say for sure is really "wrong" with it at this point is that it struggles to start cold. (Remember "cold" is a loose term as I do live in San Diego and we are wrapping up another gnarly heat wave.) Its probably the CSV but I haven't had any time at all to pop the engine hatch. And I wont be able to get to it until after the 14th as I will be in San Fran for the next week.
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Amskeptic
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:57 pm

bosco53 wrote:power...16-28 seconds
The only thing I can say for sure is really "wrong" with it at this point is that it struggles to start cold.
Look at the spark plugs shortly after a highway run.
Are they white at the ceramic under the center electrode?
Are they white around the metal shell that has the ground electrode?
LEAN

Are they white at the ceramic under the center electrode?
Are they tan around the metal shell that has the ground electrode?
Lean

Are they white at the ceramic under the center electrode?
Are they black around the metal shell that has the ground electrode?
Leanish but good

Are they tan at the ceramic under the center electrode?
Are they black around the metal shell that has the ground electrode?
Good maybe richish

Are they black at the ceramic under the center electrode?
Are they black around the metal shell that has the ground electrode?
RICH

Colinish
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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SlowLane
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Re: 80 vanagon high idle, lagging power, failed smog

Post by SlowLane » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:41 pm

bosco53 wrote: The only thing I can say for sure is really "wrong" with it at this point is that it struggles to start cold. (Remember "cold" is a loose term as I do live in San Diego and we are wrapping up another gnarly heat wave.) Its probably the CSV but I haven't had any time at all to pop the engine hatch. And I wont be able to get to it until after the 14th as I will be in San Fran for the next week.
I suspect that your recalcitrant cold-start is more likely to be an Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR) issue than a CSV issue. Colin has an excellent writeup somewhere around here on the AAR and how to adjust it for maximum effectiveness. Taking out the AAR also gives you an excellent opportunity to examine the treacherous AAR elbow for hidden cracks and splits.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

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