Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Find/Fix/Report Back

Moderators: Sluggo, Amskeptic

User avatar
CikanVuz
I'm New!
Contact:
Status: Offline

Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by CikanVuz » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:36 pm

Okay.. long story short as possible

Got bus, had valves adjusted, no issues told to me (or noticed at time by busy mechanic) but was told to get solid rocker shaft and swivel feet. which I did.

Removed stock rocker arm assembly, clip, spring washers and spacers cracked in half but still intact on #2 cyl

Swivel adjusters wont fit

Take back to mechanic where other mechanic in-house sees keepers on #2 near gone, others worn as well.

Heads rebuilt, #2 cyl has pitting so new cylinders, pistons and rings, all around.

Fast forward to some near 550 miles later, #2 valve tight on adjustment, notice no rocker arm shaft issues.

Fast forward to two weeks later when it starts talking to me and goes through 3/4 pint of oil in five miles.
Remove valve cover, this is what I see:

Image

Now mechanic says it is my fault because I did not use loctite on assembling rocker arm assembly ( because I thought they would take apart and re-shim, as that is what I was told they would do)

So, it take them 3 valve adjustments ( at a cost to me of 100 bucks), with the first two making a bad squeaking noise with value movement after warmed up. then it stops, they say it worked it out... (burnt or bent valve, right???) They tell me to drive it around close to them so when it breaks, it breaks close to them)

AnyWho... I think, because I do not know who built the engine and I know my mechanic just used same (chromoly) pushrods in it when I bought it, that the pushrods on #2 are either not cut right or switched, are causing undo vibration and noisy valves and breakage (yes, an issue since day one of purchase) Since my mechanic did not measure or cut new pushrods on partial rebuild, how can they say it is not faulty pushrod lengths if #2 rocker arm assembly side has broke twice in under 3k miles????

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:18 am

CikanVuz wrote: A) 550 miles later, #2 valve tight on adjustment, notice no rocker arm shaft issues.

B) two weeks later 3/4 pint of oil in five miles.

C) Now mechanic says it is my fault because I did not use loctite on assembling rocker arm assembly
(because I thought they would take apart and re-shim, as that is what I was told they would do)

D) So, it take them 3 valve adjustments ( at a cost to me of 100 bucks), with the first two making a bad squeaking noise with valve movement after warmed up. then it stops, they say it worked it out... (burnt or bent valve, right???)

E) I think that the pushrods on #2 are either not cut right or switched, are causing undo vibration and noisy valves and breakage
A) this is normal after head installation. As the cylinders and heads develop working surfaces, the heads migrate imperceptibly towards the crankcase, this closes valve adjustments. It should stabilize after about 1,000 miles. Did your mechanics note that chromy moly pushrods have a different clearance than the stock ones? If they adjust chromy moly pushrod equipped engine to stock clearances, your poor valves will hammer themselves silly.

B) Could you explain this?

C) Aftermarket rocker assemblies held together with bolts on the end may require loctite. I don't know. My reliable little bus engine is stock and needs no such nonsense.

D) This is your clue. That valve motion squeak tells you that there is was inadequate room for parts expansion as the engine warmed up. You were getting seizure between the rocker arms and the supports, thus the broken thrust washers, etc. As the galled parts shredded or the retainer bolts on the ends backed away, the noise went away, because they found room for heat expansion.

E) See "D". Also, push rods bring oil to the rocker assemblies. The oiling holes must successfully align with the lifter oil holes and the rocker arm oil holes. Rocker arms have drillings in them that bring oil to the rocker shafts and up to the valve adjusters.

You are dealing with some shiny new spacer crap in there (blue! woo!) that may very well have the wrong dimensions. You should have at least .002" of sideways movement available with all rockers installed. The thrust washers normally have a little springy bend in them to allow this. Why don't you stick with the stock rocker assemblies and stock aluminum pushrods and stock .006" valve clearances and enjoy several thousands of miles of reliable operation? WHO told you (I should say, "who told the prior owner) that you needed to "upgrade" and for what reason? Are you operating the engine at sustained speeds above 5,000 rpm?
I DIDN'T THINK SO.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
CikanVuz
I'm New!
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by CikanVuz » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:38 am

Amskeptic wrote: Did your mechanics note that chromy moly pushrods have a different clearance than the stock ones? If they adjust chromy moly pushrod equipped engine to stock clearances, your poor valves will hammer themselves silly.
Yes, they were adjusted for chromy moly pushrods/ zero clearance
Amskeptic wrote: B) Could you explain this?
she (bus) used 3/4 a pint of oil in 5 miles time (was near full the day before this happened, when I got home it was on low.
Amskeptic wrote: This is your clue. That valve motion squeak tells you that there is was inadequate room for parts expansion as the engine warmed up. You were getting seizure between the rocker arms and the supports, thus the broken thrust washers, etc. As the galled parts shredded or the retainer bolts on the ends backed away, the noise went away, because they found room for heat expansion.
No, I meant that this occurred AFTER it was reassembled, while the mechanic was adjusting the valves, never before it came apart)
Amskeptic wrote: Push rods bring oil to the rocker assemblies. The oiling holes must successfully align with the lifter oil holes and the rocker arm oil holes. Rocker arms have drillings in them that bring oil to the rocker shafts and up to the valve adjusters.

You are dealing with some shiny new spacer crap in there (blue! woo!) that may very well have the wrong dimensions. You should have at least .002" of sideways movement available with all rockers installed. The thrust washers normally have a little springy bend in them to allow this. Why don't you stick with the stock rocker assemblies and stock aluminum pushrods and stock .006" valve clearances and enjoy several thousands of miles of reliable operation? WHO told you (I should say, "who told the prior owner) that you needed to "upgrade" and for what reason? Are you operating the engine at sustained speeds above 5,000 rpm?
I just got what the mechanic told me to get. and it had broke the stock clips, spring washers and spacers on the # 2 cylinder prior to me trying to put these in the first time. The mech is the one who should have double checked my spacing, as I told him I was not sure If I had it with the right clearance. And The engine was in the car when I got her; I had no say in what pushrods and parts were used when the engine was built and my mech simply reused what she had when they rebuilt the heads and replaced the cylinders, pistons and rings. As for who told the prior owner to use these parts and such, I have no clue; they (the PO) ripped me off royal on this car 9but that is my fault I suppose for trusting...); when I asked them what cam was in it, they said they did not know but that Old Speed built it, so to ask them. (Old Speed insists they never worked on the bus at all and that all they did was sell the guy a set of drop spindles...) It was supposedly a 1914 when I got the car, when it was taken apart for repairs and pitting found, cyls were measured and it was found to be a 1835, so I had them put it down to a 1776. And yes, I do not lug her, so when driving around down, she is in high revs but no tach so not sure how high.
Amskeptic wrote: I DIDN'T THINK SO.
Colin
I also have to add, you seem a bit cranky this morning.... ;)

User avatar
CikanVuz
I'm New!
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by CikanVuz » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:21 am

All I really want to know is IF the builder did not cut the pushrods the correct length, or someone switched the intake and exhaust pushrods on #2, would it be a cause for breakage in the rocker arm assembly after time?

User avatar
ruckman101
Lord God King Bwana
Location: Up next to a volcano.
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by ruckman101 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:10 pm

Pushrods should all be the same length. No difference between intake and exhaust pushrods that I'm aware of.

neal
The slipper has no teeth.

User avatar
CikanVuz
I'm New!
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by CikanVuz » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:51 pm

I dont know, but I do know my dad taught me back when I was a tadpole you take them out and lay them down on this (had a cloth, marked with eight thin rectangles, 4 for each side and labeled cylinder and intake and exhaust, and case and heads and told me to never, ever ever ever mix em up.... He was factory trained way before chromy moly pushrods came into play... and so yeah, they SHOULD be cut all the same BUT considering all the crap quick fixes to "flip it quick" the PO did to this Bus, I am expecting human error....

User avatar
ruckman101
Lord God King Bwana
Location: Up next to a volcano.
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by ruckman101 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:57 pm

Ahh. Well that makes sense.

neal
The slipper has no teeth.

User avatar
Westy78
IAC Addict!
Location: Stumptown OR
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by Westy78 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:38 pm

Push rods should not be cut all the same length by default. It depends on your cam specs (lift/duration) and valve geometry. Type1 engines may be different but seems it should be the same as a typeIV when it comes to valve geometry. When using all stock spec parts, cam, valves etc. it may not be as critical but should still be checked to make sure you get the most out of the cam and not prematurely wear valve guides.

http://aircooledclassicsmagazine.com/bl ... ry-part-i/

http://aircooledclassicsmagazine.com/bl ... y-part-ii/
Chorizo, it's what's for breakfast.

User avatar
CikanVuz
I'm New!
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by CikanVuz » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:09 pm

All I was saying was stock ones are the same length in my last comment

but what I NEED TO KNOW IS THIS : I do not believe the person who built this engine before I purchased her cut the C M pushrods correctly for the #2 cylinder. And I am trying to find out what happens IF that is true.. I do not see why that is so hard to comprehend... No one can answer my question and I getting frustrated, sorry.

but given I paid 6k for the bus and then another 6k since on repairs (in less than a year ), that I should not have had to pay if the seller had been honest to start with, I am at my wits end right now.

and given my income is under 1855 a month before taxes and expenses, I really need this to stop breaking or find out how to fix it so it stops breaking but no one will help me find the correct solution or say how to find the correct solution, all I get is the run around.

User avatar
Westy78
IAC Addict!
Location: Stumptown OR
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by Westy78 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:22 pm

CikanVuz wrote:All I was saying was stock ones are the same length in my last comment

but what I NEED TO KNOW IS THIS : I do not believe the person who built this engine before I purchased her cut the C M pushrods correctly for the #2 cylinder. And I am trying to find out what happens IF that is true.. I do not see why that is so hard to comprehend... No one can answer my question and I getting frustrated, sorry.

but given I paid 6k for the bus and then another 6k since on repairs (in less than a year ), that I should not have had to pay if the seller had been honest to start with, I am at my wits end right now.

and given my income is under 1855 a month before taxes and expenses, I really need this to stop breaking or find out how to fix it so it stops breaking but no one will help me find the correct solution or say how to find the correct solution, all I get is the run around.
Settle down. You'll get more help without being snotty. I'm not sure how incorrectly cut push rods could cause the failure you have. Why not pull the push rods out of one of the other cylinders to see if they are the same length?
Chorizo, it's what's for breakfast.

User avatar
CikanVuz
I'm New!
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by CikanVuz » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:35 pm

Sorry, I am not trying to be "snotty", I am frustrated in the worst way.

and I think the way I was raised to deal with pushrods answers your question; one does not fit the other, even with stock so how can custom cut ones do so???

but when I pull valve covers on Sunday to look at the keepers, rocker arm assemblies, check the valve adjustment and all those goodies in there, I will take it under consideration to do a comparison BUT I do not have the tools to measure them accurately, only eyeball em. I will see if the pushrod measuring tool was one of the tools stolen when my dads rolling tool chest (that he took everywhere due to his work) was stolen out of the back of his Studebaker Champ.

again, I am not trying to be snotty, I am just at my wits ends; I am sure you too have been there once in your life with your wits too... so sorry.

User avatar
Westy78
IAC Addict!
Location: Stumptown OR
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by Westy78 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:43 pm

The push rods should not be different on every cylinder. When doing geometry you measure on one cylinder for intake and exhaust and then cut the remaining push rods to match your findings. In other words lengths of push rods on cylinder# 2 should be the same length on cylinder# 4 at least as they are riding on the same cam lobes. The reason you don't want to mix up push rods when removing the valve train is mainly because those parts (lifters, push rods, cam lobes) have worn together in those particular locations and should be kept together, not necessarily because they are all different lengths.
Chorizo, it's what's for breakfast.

User avatar
CikanVuz
I'm New!
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by CikanVuz » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:51 pm

yes I know this, thanks for confirming it.

I still think there is something not right with them on #2 and
I will look at the pushrods on Sunday and see if I can see a measurable difference ( with a ruler at least) and if so, see it my mech will cut me new, correct pushrods. Given my location and circumstances, and their location ( some 50 miles + round trip) it might take me a while cos I have a kid in high school still and he does not drive yet so I am still mom-on-call...

All I can do for now I suppose.

User avatar
ruckman101
Lord God King Bwana
Location: Up next to a volcano.
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by ruckman101 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:24 pm

Just clamp a chunk of wood, a tool box, any even surface and back the pushrod ends up against it and compare them to each other. If there's variance, you'll spot it. Especially with a second straight edge. Inspect the ends. Eliminate one variable at a time. Next is eyeballing the actual rocker arm geometry.

neal
The slipper has no teeth.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:26 am

CikanVuz wrote:
I still think there is something not right with them on #2
Hi, did I seem cranky? WELL I WAS . . . here's why:

I love these cars. I do not love marketing.

Over the past thirty five years of enjoying them, I have found that
most people's grief comes from poorly executed aftermarket parts and their application.

That makes me sad and cranky.

NOW THEN:

You are cranky too because this is deeply frustrating to you.
I get that.

I do not think that the chrome moly pushrod length is likely your problem.
A too-long push rod would merely show up at your adjustment screw threads sticking waaaay out from the locknuts.
A too-short push rod would show up as adjustment screws so far in the rocker that the locknut is almost flush.

AND FURTHERMORE (I think):
if you have swivelfoot adjusters (a very good idea), then you should have spacers under the rocker stands *before* the pushrods are cut to length. You *have to have* the fulcrum (rocker shaft) out from the head the same amount as your adjusting screw tips have "grown" with the swivelfoot adjusters.
Otherwise, you will end up with short pushrods and the wrong angles through the valve lift.

Anything to add, Westy78?
Colin
[where are you CikanVuz? (you can PM if you like) I travel the country, and if you have an insurmountable problem, those are my very favorite visits]
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Post Reply