1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

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WaterDawg
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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by WaterDawg » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:36 pm

whc03grady wrote:Man, those valves were so all over the place that I'm pretty convinced that was the trouble all by itself. WaterDawg dialed them all in--his first time--and the bus seems to be running pretty well. I'll let him fill y'all in though, it's his story after all.

Well I would have been going into this blind if it were not for you Mitch! :salute:

So Mitch showed me how to adjust the valves.
We found all the Exhaust valves at .003 and under and Intake ranging from .007 to .009

I got them set to: Exhaust .008 and Intake .006 as per Adrian at Head Flow Masters (its his engine) and while at it, we changed the oil and fixed the filler tube so VW was facing up as per Mitch's suggestion.

We started her up and she ran good, but idled high so we adjusted the idle and checked timing. 7.5 BTDC =D>

I took her for a test run up the hill headed out of town to work her and she handled fine. Idled fine, actually better than before and I think we will leave it right there, but Colin, I will adjust the mixture once I hit Sea Level again.

Thanks Everyone, now onto figure out why the Aux (frig) battery drains down the Primary battery when it sits over night.

Special Thanks to Mitch who took time off work to help me get Sandy all better. :salute:
Larry Jensen
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Bleyseng
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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:42 pm

If the Aux battery drains down the main battery then you must have the relay wired wrong or its fried.
Geoff
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70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
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WaterDawg
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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by WaterDawg » Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:26 pm

Bleyseng wrote:If the Aux battery drains down the main battery then you must have the relay wired wrong or its fried.
I check Post 88. She has 1.1v switch on and .1 switch off.

Got to check to see if she is stuck open, but need to figure out the setting on the voltmeter for that BRB :study:
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Amskeptic
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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:03 pm

WaterDawg wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:If the Aux battery drains down the main battery then you must have the relay wired wrong or its fried.
I check Post 88. She has 1.1v switch on and .1 switch off.

Got to check to see if she is stuck open, but need to figure out the setting on the voltmeter for that BRB :study:

Good job on the Mitch Stop. We will talk about those .008 valve clearances sometime . . . :blackeye:

How's the Open Road?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by weisswurst » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:12 pm

Good Luck Waterdawg!
safe travels and I hope you find the issue!
I'm Colin's first stop near Miami

Jeff
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WaterDawg
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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by WaterDawg » Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:37 am

Amskeptic wrote:
whc03grady wrote:When checking for vac leaks with GumOut, how much are we spraying here? I'm reticent to burn down anyone's bus except my own so maybe I had too light a touch, but I didn't notice any change in running and I think I hit all the vac connections.

One intake runner boot was loose enough to turn by hand so we put clamps on it for good measure. It idles near perfectly if you disconnect the little tube from the decel valve. Does this indicate a rich condition? I'm extremely hesitant to mess with the mixture. Oh, hitting the brakes kicks up the idle too, at least for a second.

Anyway, this bus is overdue by at least 1,000 miles for a valve adjustment so I'll be talking Larry through that tomorrow morning. Then we'll look at the points.
Yes, rich due to high elevation, decel valve gave it away.

Be bold! Just NOTE your initial adjustment settings.
For example, with engine off, turn the mixture screw in the AFM clockwise all the way down until it stops. Record how many turns to the prrecise fraction. Now turn it back to where it was.
Since it is rrrich, take another two or three turns counter-clockwise. Test drive.

Now Waterdawg, be CAREFUL with the following FACT . . . .
When you drop below 3,000 feet down on toward sea level, you must be ready to re-richen the mixture. Use the decel small hose as your reference hose.

That now-called Reference Hose also removes the vacuum to the fuel pressure regulator, making it increase fuel pressure. That means you must understand the bias that is introduced when you pull the hose.
The bias is : slightly rich!
You must allow your mixture adjustment to end up "slightly rich" as in a "mild increase in idle" as you take your finger tip off the reference hose. WHEN you put the hose back on the decel valve, the fuel pressure regulator will respond to the vacuum by dropping the fuel pressure, which leans the mixture to "perfect".

Feel free! to turn the black cog wheel teeth inside the AFM cover CLOCKWISE up to six clicks (after you paint an initial setting point!)
to lean it a bit more as necessary if engine is boggy out on the road.

Keep an eye on the CHT gauge, I am glad you have one. Lean is more deadly than rich.
Here is a quicky check anytime.
At a stop, lightly pump the brake pedal quicklyquickly.
If idle drops dramatically - too lean
If idle goes up ridiculously - too rich
If idle drops mildly and recovers when you stop pumping the brake pedal lightly and quicklyquickly - just right

You are HEREBY NOTIFIED that if any drop in power occurs on the road YOU MUST INVESTIGATE IMMEDIATELY, no rationalizations about making it to the next exit.

I'll check in tomorrow, November 14th around 8:00PM . . .
ColinLexusOldManOnTheRoadToMiami
Hey Colin,

After leaving the Mile High Town (Anaconda, MT) and then leaving Billings, MT, I noticed my engine running a it hotter at highway speed. She's operating around 400 - 410 and goes under, though slightly, 350 when idling.

I'm going to try to richen the fuel this AM to see if it helps as I should now be mostly under 3000'

There was no engine pinging or loss of power. I could easily get her up to 70 mph if I wanted to go that fast. I like 60 - 65.

Also have a timing light with me now as per Mitche's suggestion.
Larry Jensen
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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by Jivermo » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:17 am

Keep an eye on the CHT gauge, I am glad you have one. Lean is more deadly than rich.
Here is a quicky check anytime.
At a stop, lightly pump the brake pedal quicklyquickly.
If idle drops dramatically - too lean
If idle goes up ridiculously - too rich
If idle drops mildly and recovers when you stop pumping the brake pedal lightly and quicklyquickly - just right
This is a real neat trick! Colin showed me this last Sunday, on his wrap up Miami visit. A rich/lean test without leaving the driver's seat, within 30 seconds! Who'd a thunk it?

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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by WaterDawg » Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:18 am

OK, so I'm back out of the clouds and down to earth. Should be under 2000' from now on so I was thinking I should check my valves again and set them to .006 for both Intake and Exhaust before I do anything else. (She's not idling good again)

My problem is that I don;t have a set of gaskets on me at the moment. Was planning to do this once I ht VT, but with the bad idle, I think I should do it now here in NY and then go through the setting on the AFM from start to finish again.

So...is there a way for me to do the valve adjustments and reuse my gaskets that have about 2,500 miles on them ( roughly 2 weeks old) ???
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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by whc03grady » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:07 am

Just take them off carefully. If you feel the gasket is sticking to the head and might tear, back off and fight another day.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by WaterDawg » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:11 am

whc03grady wrote:Just take them off carefully. If you feel the gasket is sticking to the head and might tear, back off and fight another day.
Thanks Mitch :salute:
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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by WaterDawg » Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:40 pm

I found all Exhaust Valves tight. (.008 is looser than .006 - right?)
All Intakes were still at .006
I set them all to .006 now.

I then checked timing.
I set timing to 24-28 BTDC at 3400 RPM.

When I went back to idle, it registered 0 or TDC

I'm getting hesitation under throttle so working on the AFM now, but wondering could the timing be at issue here?

I'm getting little to no change if I pull the vacuum line though....

Thoughts?

UPDATE:

Took her for a ride, she ran good, slightly under powered up big hills, but I'm thinking this may be because I was too lean before?
She's idling around 300* and runs just over 350* with a 400* temp under heavy up hill load.

She's holding a fast idle. If I lower it too much (950) she idles very erratic (will be all over the pace between 950 and 750) but at 1000 RPM or better and she holds idle well so I'm leaving her there.

Will check MPG now as she was way down around 15-16 MPG so she might have been too rich.

Some future items to look at: I want to check that S Boot real well. I'm thinking either the AFM is no longer functioning well or the S Boot is the issue with idle.

Not going to worry about the temps until I put the DD gauge in there.
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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:09 pm

WaterDawg wrote: all exhaust valves tight
all to .006 now.

timing set to 24-28 BTDC at 3400 RPM. (idle 0*)

hesitation under throttle could the timing be at issue here?
I'm getting little to no change if I pull the vacuum line though....
slightly under powered up big hills,

holding a fast idle. If I lower it too much (950) she idles very erratic.
Time for us to be scientific, Dawg, yo yo yo Dawg here's the thing . . . (I am channeling Randy Jackson)

You are the boss, you are the scientist.
a) do not expect a change in uphill performance when you take the vacuum advance hose off the distributor. There is no vacuum going up a hill anyway . . .

(for fun, please set the timing up a bit, yes, we want a little more idle timing please, try for 3* BTDC after you actually adjust the timing at 3,400 rpm to let's say 28* on the dot)

b) an engine that cannot idle correctly at 950 rpm has a problem. Set the idle to whatever allows you to get back to the engine compartment. Once there, reduce the idle until engine begins to protest. Now put your hand on the wiper in the AFM, and ask the engine what it wants.

If it "desperately" wants more gas at idle and recovers from your above stated idle rpm wandering, either you accidentally overadjusted the AFM to weird places, or you have an as-yet unidentified vacuum leak or sumpin'.
Colin

Again, *make the engine get into the unhappy zone*. *Ask it if wants more or less fuel*. If it wants more, it will begin to idle at 950 nicely. Remember, we can adjust the fuel mixture at idle AND we can the opposite direction at high rpm should we choose to.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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WaterDawg
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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by WaterDawg » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:05 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
WaterDawg wrote: all exhaust valves tight
all to .006 now.

timing set to 24-28 BTDC at 3400 RPM. (idle 0*)

hesitation under throttle could the timing be at issue here?
I'm getting little to no change if I pull the vacuum line though....
slightly under powered up big hills,

holding a fast idle. If I lower it too much (950) she idles very erratic.
Time for us to be scientific, Dawg, yo yo yo Dawg here's the thing . . . (I am channeling Randy Jackson)

You are the boss, you are the scientist.
a) do not expect a change in uphill performance when you take the vacuum advance hose off the distributor. There is no vacuum going up a hill anyway . . .

(for fun, please set the timing up a bit, yes, we want a little more idle timing please, try for 3* BTDC after you actually adjust the timing at 3,400 rpm to let's say 28* on the dot)

b) an engine that cannot idle correctly at 950 rpm has a problem. Set the idle to whatever allows you to get back to the engine compartment. Once there, reduce the idle until engine begins to protest. Now put your hand on the wiper in the AFM, and ask the engine what it wants.

If it "desperately" wants more gas at idle and recovers from your above stated idle rpm wandering, either you accidentally overadjusted the AFM to weird places, or you have an as-yet unidentified vacuum leak or sumpin'.
Colin

Again, *make the engine get into the unhappy zone*. *Ask it if wants more or less fuel*. If it wants more, it will begin to idle at 950 nicely. Remember, we can adjust the fuel mixture at idle AND we can the opposite direction at high rpm should we choose to.
On the dot huh :scratch:

Perhaps this will tell you something. When checking the timing, there is no way for me to be on the dot she's all over the place.

Timing at 3200+ RPM http://youtu.be/wIqX4ZX2h90

Timing at Idle: http://youtu.be/_5m-2qe6uu4

oh, and if I did anything to the Idle Mixture Screw, there was no reaction from the engine.
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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:52 am

WaterDawg wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: Again, *make the engine get into the unhappy zone*. *Ask it if wants more or less fuel*.
On the dot huh :scratch:
there is no way for me to be on the dot (youtube)

if I did anything to the Idle Mixture Screw, there was no reaction from the engine.
Some of that erratic flashing of the strobe can be attributed to the timing light not picking up the signal. Place the pick-up near #1 spark plug away from the other wires. Make sure all wires are not crossing each other and "cross-talking". Some pick-ups have a little arrow embossed in the plastic, it should face the spark plug.

Scatter (where it is flashing consistently but all over the place) can be attributed to crankshaft endplay and a little bit of distributor drive gear lash, just work around it, average out the readings . . . relax.

Idle mixture screw was not the experiment here. When the engine is running poorly down at idle, move the wiper either counter-clockwise or clockwise no more than 1/4" and let me know how IT affects the idle quality.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: 1978 Bus, 2.0 FI, Solid Lifters - Dies at Idle

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:21 am

Amskeptic wrote:
WaterDawg wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: Again, *make the engine get into the unhappy zone*. *Ask it if wants more or less fuel*.
On the dot huh :scratch:
there is no way for me to be on the dot (youtube)

if I did anything to the Idle Mixture Screw, there was no reaction from the engine.
Some of that erratic flashing of the strobe can be attributed to the timing light not picking up the signal. Place the pick-up near #1 spark plug away from the other wires. Make sure all wires are not crossing each other and "cross-talking". Some pick-ups have a little arrow embossed in the plastic, it should face the spark plug.

Scatter (where it is flashing consistently but all over the place) can be attributed to crankshaft endplay and a little bit of distributor drive gear lash, just work around it, average out the readings . . . relax.

Idle mixture screw was not the experiment here. When the engine is running poorly down at idle, move the wiper either counter-clockwise or clockwise no more than 1/4" and let me know how IT affects the idle quality.
Colin
Scatter can also be a worn distributor housing and the shaft flops around in it. Rebuilding the dizzy and bushing the housing with bronze bushing take care of that forever. To check for it you take out the dizzy and check for excessive slop when you move the shaft back and forth not up and down. It should be a minimum of movement. A1 Cardone used to do a nice rebuild of these VW dizzy's including installing bushing in the housing.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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