Type I slow start (cold) - Fixed

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hercdriver
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Location: Beaver, PA
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Type I slow start (cold) - Fixed

Post by hercdriver » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:06 am

My 1966 Beetle has been running great, with the exception of cold starts. The car will crank for about 4-5 seconds before it fires up on a cold engine. After it's run and warm, it'll start immediately. ( I drive the car about once a week.)

About the engine....
-Bone stock 1300 (probably rebuilt to 1500/1600)
-Stock carburetor/ distributor
-Points set, timing set, valves set, idle set
-new 6 volt Optima battery (engine turns over quickly for a 6 volt)

I have noticed that on a cold start, if I crank for 3-5 seconds and then wait another 5 seconds it seems to start easier on the second attempt?

I'm assuming the bowl in the carburetor isn't full on the first start and the delay of start is from the time it takes to refill the bowl. Any other ideas?
66 Beetle
75 Westy

Remember that there is nothing stable in human affairs; therefore avoid undue elation in prosperity, or undue depression in adversity. -Socrates

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sped372
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Re: Type I slow start (cold)

Post by sped372 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:58 am

So it's more of a delayed start than a slow start? Slow start to me describes an engine that turns over slowly. If your engine is turning quickly but not catching right away, that's something different. Have you checked your choke adjustment? Are you doing the proper double-quick-pump on the throttle right before turning the key cold-start technique?
1971 Karmann Ghia - 1600 DP
1984 Westfalia - 1.9 WBX

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Amskeptic
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Re: Type I slow start (cold)

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:47 am

hercdriver wrote:My 1966 Beetle delay of start
Next cold morning:
pull air cleaner
pull throttle lever open fully, release, again and hold while you:
push choke plate fully closed.
release throttle lever to hold this fast idle position
reinstall air cleaner

Start engine with no accelerator pedal

How'd it do?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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hambone
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Re: Type I slow start (cold)

Post by hambone » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:24 pm

In the Midwest, I found that it really helped to put a bottle of Heet in the tank in the winter.
I also had terrible luck with the 6V system, not enuff spark.
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http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
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Amskeptic
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Re: Type I slow start (cold)

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:10 pm

hambone wrote:In the Midwest, I found that it really helped to put a bottle of Heet in the tank in the winter.
I also had terrible luck with the 6V system, not enuff spark.
. . . . because your 6 volt system was devoting all of its energy and inefficiency to the starter, there wasn't much left over for the coil?
A good clean new 6 volt system with .024" spark plugs, nothing could stop a Volkswagen.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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hambone
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Re: Type I slow start (cold)

Post by hambone » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:49 pm

Well maybe it should be "spark"...the wiring must have been horribly old, candle headlights etc.
http://greencascadia.blogspot.com
http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
your brand new leopard skin pillbox hat

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hercdriver
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Location: Beaver, PA
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Re: Type I slow start (cold)

Post by hercdriver » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:28 am

Amskeptic wrote:
hercdriver wrote:My 1966 Beetle delay of start
Next cold morning:
pull air cleaner
pull throttle lever open fully, release, again and hold while you:
push choke plate fully closed.
release throttle lever to hold this fast idle position
reinstall air cleaner

Start engine with no accelerator pedal

How'd it do?
Colin
You were spot on Colin.

It's the choke.

I went out this morning and per your instructions reset the choke. Here is a picture of the choke after the first application of full throttle.
IMG_0254.jpg
IMG_0254.jpg (43.87 KiB) Viewed 4136 times
You can see (what I think you've already suspected) that the choke is not closing. I had dismissed this earlier, because the choke element was opening and getting power. (I hadn't noticed it not closing) When I closed it manually, it seemed "sticky/slow".

I started the car and it fired up on the second revolution! As it warmed, you could see the choke working (opening).

Which brings me to the next question. How do I get the choke to spring back when it's cold?
66 Beetle
75 Westy

Remember that there is nothing stable in human affairs; therefore avoid undue elation in prosperity, or undue depression in adversity. -Socrates

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sped372
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Re: Type I slow start (cold)

Post by sped372 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:13 am

You have to loosen the three flat-head screws on the right-hand side of the carb that are around the trangu-circular choke clamp plate thingy. Then you can rotate the body of the choke so that it's *just* closed when the engine is cold cold. Tighten the clamp screws back down afterwards and Verify that it opens all the way after warmup or you'll be dumping extra fuel.
1971 Karmann Ghia - 1600 DP
1984 Westfalia - 1.9 WBX

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hercdriver
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Re: Type I slow start (cold)

Post by hercdriver » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:07 am

sped372 wrote:You have to loosen the three flat-head screws on the right-hand side of the carb that are around the trangu-circular choke clamp plate thingy. Then you can rotate the body of the choke so that it's *just* closed when the engine is cold cold. Tighten the clamp screws back down afterwards and Verify that it opens all the way after warmup or you'll be dumping extra fuel.
I'm on it. I'll report back with the result.
66 Beetle
75 Westy

Remember that there is nothing stable in human affairs; therefore avoid undue elation in prosperity, or undue depression in adversity. -Socrates

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hercdriver
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Re: Type I slow start (cold)

Post by hercdriver » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:16 pm

I'd call it fixed!

I waited for the engine to get cold and repeated Colin's troubleshooting steps. Only this time, I loosened the 3 screws per sped372's advice. Even at full counter clockwise movement, I wasn't getting the choke to close. I manually moved it closed and I could feel resistance towards the end of its travel. The 10mm nut on the end of the choke shaft was the problem. I loosened it about 30* and the shaft moved much more freely. After the shaft freed up, the electric side of the choke adjusted easily. A turn of the key and she started right up. I held the throttle open manually and watched the choke cog move to full open in about 2 minutes.

Thanks for the advice.
66 Beetle
75 Westy

Remember that there is nothing stable in human affairs; therefore avoid undue elation in prosperity, or undue depression in adversity. -Socrates

kreemoweet
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Re: Type I slow start (cold) - Fixed

Post by kreemoweet » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:38 pm

There's somthing amiss with the choke shaft assembly on your carb. You should be able to tighten that M6 jam nut (10 mm wrench size)
tighter than tight and not have the shaft bind. Because the nut tightens up against that little operating lever, which in turn is stopped by the step
in the shaft where the flats on the threaded shaft end, begin, leaving plenty of clearance (well over .5 mm on the carbs I have at hand) between the
lever and the brass bushing the fast idle cam rides on. In other words, the choke shaft should move freely in and out. It's likely the brass(bronze?) bushing
has worked loose from it's recess in the carb body (it's a light press fit).

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Amskeptic
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Re: Type I slow start (cold) - Fixed

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:47 pm

kreemoweet wrote:There's somthing amiss with the choke shaft assembly on your carb. You should be able to tighten that M6 jam nut (10 mm wrench size)
tighter than tight and not have the shaft bind. Because the nut tightens up against that little operating lever, which in turn is stopped by the step
in the shaft where the flats on the threaded shaft end, begin, leaving plenty of clearance (well over .5 mm on the carbs I have at hand) between the
lever and the brass bushing the fast idle cam rides on. In other words, the choke shaft should move freely in and out. It's likely the brass(bronze?) bushing
has worked loose from it's recess in the carb body (it's a light press fit).
I am a little confused myself . . .

Dave,
Cold morning test again.

Go out to car and step on accelerator once! Don't even sit down.
Now get back to the carburetor. You should see fast idle cam nicely holding throttle open a bit. The 10mm nut/little lever with the hook that pressed the fast idle cam is supposed to be able to move towards fully open (towards you) independently of the fast idle cam. It is at-one with the choke plate which has to be free to open all by itself while you sit in the kitchen finishing your coffee against all the rules of Korrect Kold Driving as spelled out in your owner's manual.

If the 10mm nut/little lever with little hook is free to move towards "open" (you) independently of the fast idle cam still holding the throttle cracked open, then don't worry about it. If it seems wedded to the fast idle cam, or if sticks anywhere in its travel, investigate further.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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