Itinerant Air-Cooled

Miz and I are stuck trying to get his ’82 air-cooled Vanagon to start after we pulled the engine to fix a terrible oil leak. We’ve determined that we are not getting a spark. The bus ran before we pulled the engine and we are sure that we’ve hooked up everything properly because we used previous photo as a guide. Here are the details:

• Recently pulled the engine to replace oil cooler seals and tipstick tube o-ring seal.
• Progressive Carb
• Breakerless Points (pertronix???)
• The coil is good, that is it worked when we swapped coils with my running bus.
• Tested positive for 12V going to the + side of the coil when the ignition is hot.
• Starter battery/aux battery are in parallel and have an ok charge.

This is my first experience with the breakerless points. There is a ring over the distributor cam and a pick-up where the points would normally be. Since the coil tested good, I’m suspecting these breakerless points. Are we on the right track, or is there something else to consider? How do these breakerless points fail?

Miz's engine.




This is how we tested for 12V going to the possitive side of the coil.



The Miz

Hey all: Any help that can be given to get my bus started again, would be greatly appreciated...Vana White needs to make a family camping trip soon!
Thanks in advance- the miz

I have had those breakerless things fail just put a set of points in thats easy enough to try. If you got power and you tried a coil that is pretty much all you have left to try.

Your first photo may be deceptive, but it looks like you might have your #3 and #4 cylinder firing order reversed.

Pertronix are known to fail if you accidentally wire them up backwards. Doesn't look like that's the case from photo 2, but if you were moving wires around while hooking it up, they might have gotten crossed at some point.

Points and condensor are a good place to start from, if you have them handy.

Hey all- Thanks for the replies! I removed the breaker-less set up and installed points and a condenser this afternoon...still no luck. Any further thoughts would be much appreciated!
Thanks again-
the miz

Would a dirty/loose/corroded transmission ground strap allow the starter to turn over but perhaps not give us spark? Isn’t the engine grounded via that ground strap? The ground strap in tough shape and maybe it can’t handle to 20,000 volts that the coil provides, I don’t know. That ground strap had been disconnected since your bus last ran; our original engine drop plan was to drop the engine/trans as a unit like I do it with my Baywindow, well, that is until we realized that we’d have to deal with a hydraulic clutch, which I’m not used to. Maybe try taking some steel wool to the contact points on the transmission ground strap and see what happens.

Best practice is to get to know your FI system.

Do you have the digijet pro manual? If not, go to this link at TS; scroll down to the 4th post and download the pdf of the digijet manual.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=419312

You'll find this very helpful in tracking down starting issues.

If you can't get it there, let me know, and I'll send a copy to you via email.

*******************

All other things being equal, check all the grounds first. That causes so many problems (I had an 82 Westy) that it's worth the time.

My next guess (and guess it is) is the double-relay which can cause trouble.

Best regards,

Michael L

BellePlaine wrote:Would a dirty/loose/corroded transmission ground strap allow the starter to turn over but perhaps not give us spark? Isn’t the engine grounded via that ground strap? The ground strap in tough shape and maybe it can’t handle to 20,000 volts that the coil provides, I don’t know. That ground strap had been disconnected since your bus last ran; our original engine drop plan was to drop the engine/trans as a unit like I do it with my Baywindow, well, that is until we realized that we’d have to deal with a hydraulic clutch, which I’m not used to. Maybe try taking some steel wool to the contact points on the transmission ground strap and see what happens.

Always a good idea to ensure the ground strap is solid, especially if you've disconnected it, but if the starter is cranking over with alacrity, then that pretty much says that the ground connection is good, at least for the purpose of supplying grounding for the ignition. The ground strap should never see the 20 kV on the ignition secondary side. If it does, you've got bigger problems.

Got any spark at all? Did you remove the ignition cable from the center electrode of the distributor and hold it (with insulated pliers) close to a ground and observe sparks flying as you crank the engine over?

Points correctly gapped? You can check the dwell on your points with a dwell meter even if the engine won't run. You just need to crank it over with the starter long enough to check the dwell angle while doing so. Shouldn't take more than a few seconds. You can also do a sanity check of the ignition timing while cranking ot over to see if it's in the ball park.

Did you have the distributor out or move the plug wires around? Is that vacuum advance line going to a "ported" vacuum source on that carburetor?

The starter turns the engine over seemingly strong enough that I think it could start, however, it is turning over more slowly compared to my running engine, maybe ½ the speed.

We tried the test you are suggesting of pulling the center plug from the distributor cap and holding it ½ inch from the engine case and we got no spark with the breakerless points. Miz has yet to proform this test now that his installed the points/condenser. But the bus is still not starting.

Miz didn't have a feeler handy so I suggested using a matchbook cover to set the point's gap until a feeler gage could be used. It's not perfect but I would suspect that the bus should at least run.

No, we had not loosened or removed the distributor at all. It's good to know that it's possible to time and check the dwell on a non-starting engine. We might have to test that.

[quote="Lanval"]Best practice is to get to know your FI system.

Michael, thanks for the thoughts on FI! Although I do plan to switch back at some point- my bus is currently carbureted. I will probably hit you up for that manual once I get my future FI project done- in the meanwhile- back to trying to get this thing to spark! :)

BellePlaine wrote:We tried the test you are suggesting of pulling the center plug from the distributor cap and holding it ½ inch from the engine case and we got no spark with the breakerless points. Miz has yet to proform this test now that his installed the points/condenser. But the bus is still not starting.

Miz didn't have a feeler handy so I suggested using a matchbook cover to set the point's gap until a feeler gage could be used. It's not perfect but I would suspect that the bus should at least run.

No, we had not loosened or removed the distributor at all. It's good to know that it's possible to time and check the dwell on a non-starting engine. We might have to test that.

I will try to pick up a feeler gauge this afternoon to see if it helps to set the points more correctly. I will also see if I can get my wife to help me so I can perform the spark test from the coil. As Belle Plaine had mentioned, we tried this test on the breaker-less system with no luck- and it seemed to have nothing to do with either the coil or the wire...if it fails the test again, I will resume being stymied...

Also, Miz, remove the trans ground strap so you can clean the connections until they shine, reinstall and report back. Good luck.

BellePlaine wrote:The starter turns the engine over seemingly strong enough that I think it could start, however, it is turning over more slowly compared to my running engine, maybe ½ the speed.

How strong/fresh is the battery? Fully charged? Did you try jump-starting it from your bus?

BellePlaine wrote: No, we had not loosened or removed the distributor at all. It's good to know that it's possible to time and check the dwell on a non-starting engine. We might have to test that.

A caveat here: the dwell can be checked with no spark, but the timing can't, because the timing light needs a spark to trigger from.

Sounds like you're on the right path with the ground strap. It's one thing that you've identified that has changed from before. Consider treating every electrical connection with DeOxit.

Carbs ~ got it.

If it's turning over, I'd be looking at the grounds on the engine for the circuits first. There are a range of circuits grounded on the block on the driver's side; double check that those are all clean/tight/functional.

I had a similar problem on my 82 (Federal FI version) which was the double-relay, and again on my 85 which again was the double relay; to trouble-shoot that and the electronics, you're going to need the FI manual for sufficient detail (well, at least I did; the Bentley has some of it, but the FI manual has it ALL). Even with the carbs I'm going to recommend that you download the manual and look it over; you may find your problem is upstream ~ at the relay (known to fail, and failed on both my 82 and my 85), or the ECU.

Also, I assume you've got a good multi-meter? I prefer digital, though I note that set-in-his-ways Colin uses an analog meter (and can do more with it than I can with my fancy-schmancy digital tool). It's a good tool to ferret out where the juice stops flowing...


Best,

Michael L

the miz wrote:

BellePlaine wrote:We tried the test you are suggesting of pulling the center plug from the distributor cap and holding it ½ inch from the engine case and we got no spark with the breakerless points. Miz has yet to proform this test now that his installed the points/condenser. But the bus is still not starting.

Miz didn't have a feeler handy so I suggested using a matchbook cover to set the point's gap until a feeler gage could be used. It's not perfect but I would suspect that the bus should at least run.

No, we had not loosened or removed the distributor at all. It's good to know that it's possible to time and check the dwell on a non-starting engine. We might have to test that.

I will try to pick up a feeler gauge this afternoon to see if it helps to set the points more correctly. I will also see if I can get my wife to help me so I can perform the spark test from the coil. As Belle Plaine had mentioned, we tried this test on the breaker-less system with no luck- and it seemed to have nothing to do with either the coil or the wire...if it fails the test again, I will resume being stymied...

Let's do the bang-it out get it running diagnosis.

A) Adjust your points to matchbook/.016" on a lobe, doesn't really matter.

B) Rotate engine to close points after adjustment is complete.

C) Turn on ignition. Remove coil wire from center of distributor cap. With this wire 1/4" from bare metal, pry the points open with a screwdriver. There will be a slight spark at the points if you inadvertently ground the screwdriver, but we are looking for a healthy spark at the coil wire each time you pry the points open. Shut off ignition.

C) Yes - go to D.
C) No - check coil resistance between (+) and (-) 3 ohms. Replace with known good coil if necessary.

D) Put cap back on. Dump a tablespoon of good gasoline down the carburetor throat, put air filter cover back on, move quickly, try to start with gas pedal to floor. Does it catch? If it starts, relase gas pedal so engine doesn't rev unnecessarily.

Report back.