'82 Bus - No Spark

[the miz]

All of that is reasonable, if not always helpful, but I would still start with the protraining manual, a multi-meter and a flashlight. What are those wires? Where do they go? Which ones have 12v and which do not? What is hot on the relay when key is off? When key is on? Start by figuring out what the relay does. Then you can decide if it's doing what it is supposed to do, and whether it is causing you trouble or not.

Thanks again, Michael- I will test these connections-if for no other reason than I don't know what else to do. I guess I still can't understand why I have 12v to the coil and no spark from it.

[SlowLane]

I believe the relay is a red herring for your non-spark issue, but you owe it to yourself to figure out exactly what function that relay is playing in your van. Trace the wires that lead from the relay to their other ends and figure out 1) what conditions turn on the relay, and 2) what things are powered by the relay.

There is lots of information about automotive relays on the web. Here's a good example: http://www.dlcparts.com/images/BoschGuide.pdf

You had mentioned earlier that you measured 12V at the lead which supplies power to the coil. This suggests that the relay is not getting in the way here.

Try another test, if you have the patience and a helper with equal patience:

• with everything hooked up and ignition turned off, connect the red lead of your voltmeter to the 12V supply to the coil and the black lead to engine case or frame. There should be no voltage reading with the ignition off.
  Turn on ignition. You should read 12V or more at the coil with ignition on.
  Have helper crank the engine. Observe the voltage while engine is cranking. Voltage should not drop drastically.

[the miz]

Newsflash: so, I just got frustrated and decided to try turning her over again before giving up for the night...you know, giver 'er hell one last time...and she caught! So- with the pedal to the metal, I could get her to run for a bit- albeit in a strained sounding fashion-and as soon as I would let off the pedal she'd die. Now-normally I'd sit there, foot on pedal, until she warmed up a bit-but there is some non-exhaust, strange smelling smoke coming from under the tin...should I be as concerned as I am?!
Thanks-I think we might be a bit closer...well really, it feels like a quantum leap :)

[Lanval]

Miz,

Not being knowledgeable about how the system works in carburetor mode, I don't either. But I do know how the original FI system worked, and unless this van was imported from Europe (or maybe Canada ~ not sure if they had carb'd vanagons), it was originally FI.

On the FI system the double relay was set up so that one relay powered the next, based on input from the ECU. In other words, you could have the entire system powered, but the engine wouldn't fire up, because the ECU wasn't telling the second relay to open and fire off the spark plugs. The system tested 12v all around, except for the single relay.

I figured it out only by jumping the two relays so that relay 2 was always powered (relay 1 which was supposed to open because of the ECU was not opening; initially I thought the relay was sticky, but replacing the relay didn't solve the problem, and I had to bench test the relay to verify that it was in fact good. When I could hear the relay clicking, I KNEW the problem was the ECU. $60 later [thanks Samba Classifieds!] I had a known good replacement and the problem was solved.)

The problem with leaving it like that is that the fuel pump was always on when the key was on ~ a bit scary frankly.

So what's the moral of the story?

1. You don't even know if the relay is working. It may be that you wired it up OK, but because the relay is old, it failed, or is failing, and not opening.

2. The relay may be a wacky, jury-rigged substitute for the double relay; if that's the case, then you need to know where all the wires go, and what they're doing. The ECU expects what it expects. Don't give it what it needs, and you'll never start that engine, even if the coil has 12 v.

3. If the engine doesn't have an ECU (since I don't know about carburetor motors, I have to at least consider this possibility) then all bets are off; I haven't a clue as to what the relay might do. That sends you back to checking the relay, to find out:


a. Where is it getting power from? And when?
b. Where is that power going to? Why?
c. Is the relay working? Yes/No?

Once you understand the relay's purpose/use, then you should be able to assess whether it's part of the problem or not.

Best,

Michael L

****************
Posted after the above was showing. So the issue could still be the relay (i.e. sticky relay closed for once) if in fact it's part of the starting system. Doesn't seem like it though. I'll wait for Colin/others to give you better directions, but I'm still thinking you ought to know what that thing does...

Best,

ML

[SlowLane]

there is some non-exhaust, strange smelling smoke coming from under the tin...should I be as concerned as I am?!

Yes. Don't inhale.

Your carb setup is definitely an aftermarket setup, as is that relay, which may or may not be of decent quality. Hard to tell since all of those little black cubes look the same. If I had to guess as to its function, I'd say it probably switches power to the fuel pump (which would almost have to be an aftermarket electric fuel pump, since the stock FI fuel pump puts out far too much pressure at far too high a flow rate for a carb application). It may also switch power to the electric choke.

Figure it out. Your whole system was hand-crafted by the PO. No factory manual is going to help you here. In addition to sorting out the wiring, you should find out what make and model fuel pump you have and check its pressure output against the needs of your carburator.

The carb has no use for an ECU whatsoever, which was probably part of the appeal of the conversion for the previous owner, who likely didn't care to be bothered learning anything about that forrin fuel injection stuff.

[Lanval]

there is some non-exhaust, strange smelling smoke coming from under the tin...should I be as concerned as I am?!

Yes. Don't inhale.

Your carb setup is definitely an aftermarket setup, as is that relay, which may or may not be of decent quality. Hard to tell since all of those little black cubes look the same. If I had to guess as to its function, I'd say it probably switches power to the fuel pump (which would almost have to be an aftermarket electric fuel pump, since the stock FI fuel pump puts out far too much pressure at far too high a flow rate for a carb application). It may also switch power to the electric choke.

Figure it out. Your whole system was hand-crafted by the PO. No factory manual is going to help you here. In addition to sorting out the wiring, you should find out what make and model fuel pump you have and check its pressure output against the needs of your carburator.

The carb has no use for an ECU whatsoever, which was probably part of the appeal of the conversion for the previous owner, who likely didn't care to be bothered learning anything about that forrin fuel injection stuff.

SL,

May I ask for a bit of education here... does the ECU remain in the car? If so, what is it hooked up to? In the original FI setup, the ECU was needed to fire the injectors in time with the ignition. Since the carbs are (per your statement) totally separate from the ECU (if it's still there) I am left wondering how the current set up correlates the dizzy/ignition with the gas/air...

Anyway, I've linked to the protraining manual below; check pages 119-120 for some testing on the ignition system.

http://www.westfalia.gomezperales.com/D ... ystems.pdf

I think your instructions are key here, SL; Miz you'll have to get to know this system... figure out how it works. Once you know what it all does, you'll be able to fix it up.

Best,

ML

[vdubyah73]

either a hot start relay or a fuel pump shut shut off hooked to o/p switch? previous owner shtuff?

[BellePlaine]

Congratulations on at getting it running, Miz.

Your carb setup is definitely an aftermarket setup, as is that relay, which may or may not be of decent quality. Hard to tell since all of those little black cubes look the same. If I had to guess as to its function, I'd say it probably switches power to the fuel pump (which would almost have to be an aftermarket electric fuel pump, since the stock FI fuel pump puts out far too much pressure at far too high a flow rate for a carb application). It may also switch power to the electric choke.

You're right, SL. The bus does not have the stock FI fuel pump. If I remember right, the fuel pump is a metal cube looking thing. There is also not a fuel pressure regulator either, and up until recently there was not a fuel filter. Miz installed the fuel filter before we dropped the engine and the engine was running fine back then.



On the relay, the red wire/blue spade goes to the electronic choke. The black wire/red spade is a ground going to the firewall. We did have to disconnect these two wires to drop the engine. The other wires, I don't know where they go because we didn't mess with them but I think that you're right, they probably go to the fuel pump. The fuel pump, by the way, starts pumping fuel as soon as the ignition is hot.

Miz, now that you got it to run, I wonder if your bus will test positive for spark at the wire going to the top of the distributor cap? I still think that the source of our problem is with the ignition.

[the miz]

there is some non-exhaust, strange smelling smoke coming from under the tin...should I be as concerned as I am?!

Yes. Don't inhale.

Your carb setup is definitely an aftermarket setup, as is that relay, which may or may not be of decent quality. Hard to tell since all of those little black cubes look the same. If I had to guess as to its function, I'd say it probably switches power to the fuel pump (which would almost have to be an aftermarket electric fuel pump, since the stock FI fuel pump puts out far too much pressure at far too high a flow rate for a carb application). It may also switch power to the electric choke.

Figure it out. Your whole system was hand-crafted by the PO. No factory manual is going to help you here. In addition to sorting out the wiring, you should find out what make and model fuel pump you have and check its pressure output against the needs of your carburator.

The carb has no use for an ECU whatsoever, which was probably part of the appeal of the conversion for the previous owner, who likely didn't care to be bothered learning anything about that forrin fuel injection stuff.

Thanks again! ...wish it were that kind of smoke, then I wouldn't be that worried..."kids, hold your breath, we're going campin'"-cue "Purple Haze".;)
I figure it could be residual degreaser that is smoking, I'm sure I wasn't able to get it all off...the engine was covered in a fine patina of oil spray from the leak which mixed with red AZ desert dust to form a funky adobe which pretty well covered everything mechanical in the rear 1/4 of the bus. If that is all it is, I will probably be ok. It has kind of the "clean" smell of hot metal to it. I just gave up last night before I gave my sleeping family CO poisoning.

I certainly appreciate all of the links etc. that have been given to help me figure out my cobbled together carb system. These should hopefully help me in the interim-I do plan to convert the engine back to FI, maybe as soon as late summer, but would like to get a little use out of it between now and then.

One other though based on last night's mini-success: the oil cooler was removed, and emptied, cleaned and had new seals put on...can I assume it is normal that it will make a little noise (fluid displacing air type noise)as it refills again?
Also- I know I will need to add a cup or so of oil-as the system would be low, and a little out of whack from the engine being out-probably also not too alarming that the oil pressure light would come on and off during the start up? I imagine that could be electrically related too, as the engine did not run strong enough to get the battery and EGR lights to turn off either.

Again-thanks to all for the continued help, support and suggestion.
miz

[the miz]

Congratulations on at getting it running, Miz.



On the relay, the red wire/blue spade goes to the electronic choke. The black wire/red spade goes is a ground going to the firewall. We did have to disconnect these too wires to drop the engine. The other wires, I don't know where they go because we didn't mess with them but I think that you're right, they probably go to the fuel pump. The fuel pump, by the way, starts pumping fuel as soon as the ignition is hot.

Miz, now that you got it to run, I wonder if your bus will test positive for spark at the wire going to the top of the distributor cap? I still think that the source of our problem is with the ignition.

I am going to confirm what BellePlaine said about the relay...red wire/blue spade-to choke, black wire/red spade-to ground, other black and red wires to fuel pump, which is a black plastic cylindrical affair: Facet Posiflo EFP3. Followed the wires this AM-now slightly coated in adobe. ;)

...will see if I can do the spark check again a bit later.

[Lanval]

I still think that the source of our problem is with the ignition.

Excellent point. That is also a classic failure in the vanagon model.

ML

[Amskeptic]

I am going to confirm what BellePlaine said about the relay...red wire/blue spade-to choke, black wire/red spade-to ground, other black and red wires to fuel pump, which is a black plastic cylindrical affair: Facet Posiflo EFP3. Followed the wires this AM-now slightly coated in adobe. ;)

...will see if I can do the spark check again a bit later.

Confirm what I said about relays, the generic first couple of pictures.

http://itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtop ... =50&t=5459

Use these conventions. 30 is hot, 87 is destination, 86 is control, 85 is relay's own ground.
Get this thing running right, or I am driving up there tomorrow.
Colin

[the miz]

Confirm what I said about relays, the generic first couple of pictures.

http://itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtop ... =50&t=5459

Use these conventions. 30 is hot, 87 is destination, 86 is control, 85 is relay's own ground.
Get this thing running right, or I am driving up there tomorrow.
Colin

Confirmed: Big Red is hot and on 30, Big Black is on 86, Red/Blue Spade-to choke is 87a, little black to ground is on 85.

that's all I have time to do for now... thanks again and have a great weekend!

[SlowLane]

Confirmed: Big Red is hot and on 30, Big Black is on 86, Red/Blue Spade-to choke is 87a, little black to ground is on 85.

Might be a problem here. 87a is a normally-closed contact on Bosch relays, meaning that your choke element may be receiving power when the relay is not energized (ie. it's connected to Big Red Hot on 30 when no voltage is present at Big Black on 86)

[Lanval]

Miz,

I've linked to an image of a relay here, which shows a simple relay:

http://4x4icon.com/crossfire/Vehicle_Dy ... g_info.gif

In general, this is what we should see:

#30 Permanent power in
#87 Permanent power out when relay is powered
#86 Switched power in
#85 Ground (allows #86 power to close relay [complete circuit])

When the switched power on 86 is applied, the relay closes the circuit and sends power through the relay FROM #30 to #87 and from #87 out to whatever device is switched on.

Sometimes there is a dual out, which is what you seem to have here:

http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/images/ ... gGuide.jpg

in this scenario, things change slightly:

#30 Permanent power in
#87 Permanent power out when relay is powered
#87a Permanent power out when relay is NOT powered
#86 Switched power in
#85 Ground (allows #86 power to close relay [complete circuit])

In this setup, 87a is sending out power when the relay is not on. In other words, you have something hooked up to #86 (let's say the ignition). When the ignition is off, the power in from #30 goes to #87a. When the ignition is used, that sends power to #86, closing the circuit which makes the relay move power from the #87a output to the #87 output.

*********************

So what does that mean to you? It means that whatever powers the relay (in your words "Big Black") turns OFF 87a when the relay is powered. The choke is getting no power when the relay is powered by whatever "Big Black" is getting power from.

Time to find out where everything is connected; then rearrange the relay wiring as necessary.

Best,

Michael L