T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
- VWDreamer
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T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
Hi all :) I dont post here much, but figured i would give it a shot.
Deets:
1971 hightop BUS :) 1641cc dp
I am unable to get the dist drive gear to come out, I need to rotate it about 90deg. In the photo it shows where the drive gear is at when engine is on #1 TDC.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/- ... directlink
Some history, this bus was in the Vernonia 2007 flood, and under about 6ft of water. I've already done so much, electrical (still have some minor issues) as well as brakes (booster, lines, wheel cylinders, flush, etc) I put about 3k miles on the engine. Before the flood, supposedly, the engine had 10k miles on it. I changed the oil and did some maintenance on the engine, but this is the first time i pulled it. I replaced the rings, heads, added full flow without machining for an oil filter (bonus: clean gas tank, 091 tranny, new axels/cv's, powdercoated tin, painted engine compartment and redo aux batt wiring).
So total, this engine only has about 13k miles on it (10k before flood, 3k after), it looks like it was balanced, drill marks on the crank and all p&c's marked for corresponding cylinder.
When i pulled the distributor, and pulled the spring out, it was super gross, I had always had trouble timing the engine (and had to adjust valves per pulley and valves rather than referring to dist) the last trip i took with it, it was low on power, and blowing oil everywhere. I think this was due to rear seal, push rod tubes leaking, as well as my confusion on where to time it (with it the way it is now, the vacuum can hits the fuel pump or fan shroud when the #1 mark on the dist actually lines up with where the rotor is when engine is on #1 TDC).
Ideally, I would like to fix the dist gear at least a little closer to where #1 is, we were trying to pull it out just enough to turn it 90deg clockwise. However, even with the tool, we are unable to get the gear to come out. The fuel pump is out, and engine/gear still turnsover, but gear just doesnt come OUT.
Any suggestions?
Deets:
1971 hightop BUS :) 1641cc dp
I am unable to get the dist drive gear to come out, I need to rotate it about 90deg. In the photo it shows where the drive gear is at when engine is on #1 TDC.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/- ... directlink
Some history, this bus was in the Vernonia 2007 flood, and under about 6ft of water. I've already done so much, electrical (still have some minor issues) as well as brakes (booster, lines, wheel cylinders, flush, etc) I put about 3k miles on the engine. Before the flood, supposedly, the engine had 10k miles on it. I changed the oil and did some maintenance on the engine, but this is the first time i pulled it. I replaced the rings, heads, added full flow without machining for an oil filter (bonus: clean gas tank, 091 tranny, new axels/cv's, powdercoated tin, painted engine compartment and redo aux batt wiring).
So total, this engine only has about 13k miles on it (10k before flood, 3k after), it looks like it was balanced, drill marks on the crank and all p&c's marked for corresponding cylinder.
When i pulled the distributor, and pulled the spring out, it was super gross, I had always had trouble timing the engine (and had to adjust valves per pulley and valves rather than referring to dist) the last trip i took with it, it was low on power, and blowing oil everywhere. I think this was due to rear seal, push rod tubes leaking, as well as my confusion on where to time it (with it the way it is now, the vacuum can hits the fuel pump or fan shroud when the #1 mark on the dist actually lines up with where the rotor is when engine is on #1 TDC).
Ideally, I would like to fix the dist gear at least a little closer to where #1 is, we were trying to pull it out just enough to turn it 90deg clockwise. However, even with the tool, we are unable to get the gear to come out. The fuel pump is out, and engine/gear still turnsover, but gear just doesnt come OUT.
Any suggestions?
~Heather~
Portland, OR
1971 Adventurewagon - Rosie
1970 articulated vw bus - BusZilla II
1967 bug - daily - Bettie Page
http://www.vwdreamer.com
Portland, OR
1971 Adventurewagon - Rosie
1970 articulated vw bus - BusZilla II
1967 bug - daily - Bettie Page
http://www.vwdreamer.com
- Gypsie
- rusty aircooled mekanich
- Location: Treadin' Lightly under the Clear Blue!
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Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
Have you tried turning the crank to 'walk it out'? Maybe get your tool into the drive gear and turn the crank a little to start the motion. Once it is moving a bit it may let go. Or did you try it right after running it so that it is nice and hot?
Or scrub (with something that won't dig into the case) the area right above the top of the gear. (I would use WD40 and a long wooden skewer)
I am guessing that it is gooped in the oiler groove or a ring of crust has formed on top when it sat.
Or scrub (with something that won't dig into the case) the area right above the top of the gear. (I would use WD40 and a long wooden skewer)
I am guessing that it is gooped in the oiler groove or a ring of crust has formed on top when it sat.
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....
- VWDreamer
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Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
well the engine has been out for a month or so, and I dont have a setup to run it out of bus.... so thats not really an option.
with two people, one was pulling on the tool, and one rotating the engine just slightly, and the tool just pulled out.
I did soak the top with maltby last night, you gave me an idea that i need to spray down the fuel pump hole nearish the gears! I will go do that right now :)
with two people, one was pulling on the tool, and one rotating the engine just slightly, and the tool just pulled out.
I did soak the top with maltby last night, you gave me an idea that i need to spray down the fuel pump hole nearish the gears! I will go do that right now :)
~Heather~
Portland, OR
1971 Adventurewagon - Rosie
1970 articulated vw bus - BusZilla II
1967 bug - daily - Bettie Page
http://www.vwdreamer.com
Portland, OR
1971 Adventurewagon - Rosie
1970 articulated vw bus - BusZilla II
1967 bug - daily - Bettie Page
http://www.vwdreamer.com
- Gypsie
- rusty aircooled mekanich
- Location: Treadin' Lightly under the Clear Blue!
- Status: Offline
Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
Can you get your tool on it and be able to tap the tool in the direction of gear removal?
Grasping at straws here.
Grasping at straws here.
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....
- VWDreamer
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Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
from looking at photos (i dont have a spare gear to look at) i would need to turn counterclockwise to "back" out the gears? hmm i need to go clockwise, maybe that is one of the issues...
~Heather~
Portland, OR
1971 Adventurewagon - Rosie
1970 articulated vw bus - BusZilla II
1967 bug - daily - Bettie Page
http://www.vwdreamer.com
Portland, OR
1971 Adventurewagon - Rosie
1970 articulated vw bus - BusZilla II
1967 bug - daily - Bettie Page
http://www.vwdreamer.com
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- I'm New!
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Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
If someone put a early drive gear in then you have to have it in TDC position to remove it. the later ones come out no matter where they are but the early ones no.
- ruckman101
- Lord God King Bwana
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Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
Gnarly.
I split a case because that drive gear backed out and things hung up. No distributor in place, just trying to turn the engine over at a short block stage and panicked.
Even out of car and not running, you can apply wrench and turn engine. Play with it in terms of finding a non-binding moment. No clue on tool. I'd probably be poking an inappropriate circlip tool or something in there trying to grip the slot and pulling out.
A bugger. Good luck and do let us know what ultimately works.
neal
I split a case because that drive gear backed out and things hung up. No distributor in place, just trying to turn the engine over at a short block stage and panicked.
Even out of car and not running, you can apply wrench and turn engine. Play with it in terms of finding a non-binding moment. No clue on tool. I'd probably be poking an inappropriate circlip tool or something in there trying to grip the slot and pulling out.
A bugger. Good luck and do let us know what ultimately works.
neal
The slipper has no teeth.
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
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Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
I would love to know the reason . . . fuel pump eccentric get in the way??bigbore wrote:If someone put a early drive gear in then you have to have it in TDC position to remove it. the later ones come out no matter where they are but the early ones no.
VWDreamer, do you have a stock distributor in there, or an 009?
009 distributors have their drive dogs 90* out from the stock. The primary reason for all of this indexing of drive dogs and #1 notches was to get the vacuum advance can located at the rear (i.e. closest to the engine hatch) of the distributor circle. Leave this one alone, let this dog lie. Put the engine at a known TDC #1. Now you can easily enough rotate the outer body of the distributor to any 90* position that suits your needs, and just make sure that your #1 spark plug wire is installed in whatever terminal has the rotor under under it when you are done.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- VWDreamer
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Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
Update: after soaking it all day yesterday, we were able to get it to move out just a little, but now stuck again.. i think its due to all the crud in there from the flood.... (yes i know if i had the $ and time i would have R&R the btm end)
The dist is the dual vacuum - 043 905 205
As per this page: http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ovhignbo.htm, its a Beetle MT Federal 1974
So the can hits the fuel pump before it gets to the #1 mark in the dist and lines up with the rotor when the engine is on #1 TDC, if i were to try to time it 180deg off #3 as #1 it would hit the intake runner/fan shroud before it lines up.
With it being a high top bay, it is heavier than other campers, and since i am running a stock carb, stock valves (running 7.7:1 compression) i was opting for the vacuum advance rather than the 009 due to the notorious "flat spot" (granted i ran the 009 on my 2007cc with 40IDF's without issue )
I am not sure if i should continue to try to get it out, or try to shove it back in there. That is pretty much where i am at.
Also - IF the washer falls into the case, I am not sure if i can get the washers out with the heads/jugs on either, i am not opposed to taking the heads/jugs off again, its just that if i split the case I will end up doing a full R&R...
Stupid question - is there any way that i can run the #2 spot on the distributor (approx 90deg counterclockwise from #1) and arrange wires so #1 is there? (honestly this may be how i was running it before, but didn't realize my dilemma before i dismantled.
The dist is the dual vacuum - 043 905 205
As per this page: http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ovhignbo.htm, its a Beetle MT Federal 1974
So the can hits the fuel pump before it gets to the #1 mark in the dist and lines up with the rotor when the engine is on #1 TDC, if i were to try to time it 180deg off #3 as #1 it would hit the intake runner/fan shroud before it lines up.
With it being a high top bay, it is heavier than other campers, and since i am running a stock carb, stock valves (running 7.7:1 compression) i was opting for the vacuum advance rather than the 009 due to the notorious "flat spot" (granted i ran the 009 on my 2007cc with 40IDF's without issue )
I am not sure if i should continue to try to get it out, or try to shove it back in there. That is pretty much where i am at.
Also - IF the washer falls into the case, I am not sure if i can get the washers out with the heads/jugs on either, i am not opposed to taking the heads/jugs off again, its just that if i split the case I will end up doing a full R&R...
Stupid question - is there any way that i can run the #2 spot on the distributor (approx 90deg counterclockwise from #1) and arrange wires so #1 is there? (honestly this may be how i was running it before, but didn't realize my dilemma before i dismantled.
~Heather~
Portland, OR
1971 Adventurewagon - Rosie
1970 articulated vw bus - BusZilla II
1967 bug - daily - Bettie Page
http://www.vwdreamer.com
Portland, OR
1971 Adventurewagon - Rosie
1970 articulated vw bus - BusZilla II
1967 bug - daily - Bettie Page
http://www.vwdreamer.com
- Gypsie
- rusty aircooled mekanich
- Location: Treadin' Lightly under the Clear Blue!
- Status: Offline
Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
What if you shifted plug wires one space off thereby making a 90* shift rather than 180. I think that what Colin was suggesting so you can hold off on any further digging until you are ready for a full R&R.
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....
- SlowLane
- IAC Addict!
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Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
Dumb question, but have you removed the fuel pump pushrod and its phenolic guide from the case?
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett
- VWDreamer
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Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
Yep, fuel pump, rod and plastic guide were removed.
We decided to just push it back in, so i will be timing #1 TDC from engine (now easier with pulley with full timing marks) it will just be 90deg counter clockwise of where it would normally be.
After all this hair pulling, i doubt i will forget!!
BTW it looks like the washer was stuck to the bottom of the shaft, and hitting the crank gear, not sure if this is indicative of something else...
Full speed ahead, should have it all dressed and ready to go in tomorrow! Yeay (wait i have to work at a REAL JOB?!)
Thanks everyone, I will post some progress pics!
We decided to just push it back in, so i will be timing #1 TDC from engine (now easier with pulley with full timing marks) it will just be 90deg counter clockwise of where it would normally be.
After all this hair pulling, i doubt i will forget!!
BTW it looks like the washer was stuck to the bottom of the shaft, and hitting the crank gear, not sure if this is indicative of something else...
Full speed ahead, should have it all dressed and ready to go in tomorrow! Yeay (wait i have to work at a REAL JOB?!)
Thanks everyone, I will post some progress pics!
~Heather~
Portland, OR
1971 Adventurewagon - Rosie
1970 articulated vw bus - BusZilla II
1967 bug - daily - Bettie Page
http://www.vwdreamer.com
Portland, OR
1971 Adventurewagon - Rosie
1970 articulated vw bus - BusZilla II
1967 bug - daily - Bettie Page
http://www.vwdreamer.com
- Gypsie
- rusty aircooled mekanich
- Location: Treadin' Lightly under the Clear Blue!
- Status: Offline
Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
I am not surprised at all that the washer was stuck considering it sat after a flood, likely an oil an water glue formed. Easy enough to unstick when pulled apart.
Keep going.
Keep going.
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....
- ruckman101
- Lord God King Bwana
- Location: Up next to a volcano.
- Contact:
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Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
My static timing skills are sketchy, but that's where I've had similar issues with a vacuum can in the way of where the timing seems to want to be. But because of my sketchy skills, I found I was off base, out in left field, not in the ball park so to say and the issue wasn't anything but lessons to learn?
don't mind me babbling,
neal
don't mind me babbling,
neal
The slipper has no teeth.
- VWDreamer
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Re: T1 Distributor drive gear/shaft stuck
Yea, my bad for not doing it right, but so much going on I can't afford it, so here we go, maybe I will pull out the other 3 Type1 short blocks I have to see if they are rebuildable, or hey I can do the wristpins in my 2007cc and it can be my "spare" hehe
Im feeling much better about it and will hit it hard tomorrow.
Conclusion, not ideal, but can use the workaround. Now I know what to expect when splitting the case.
Im feeling much better about it and will hit it hard tomorrow.
Conclusion, not ideal, but can use the workaround. Now I know what to expect when splitting the case.
~Heather~
Portland, OR
1971 Adventurewagon - Rosie
1970 articulated vw bus - BusZilla II
1967 bug - daily - Bettie Page
http://www.vwdreamer.com
Portland, OR
1971 Adventurewagon - Rosie
1970 articulated vw bus - BusZilla II
1967 bug - daily - Bettie Page
http://www.vwdreamer.com