'82 Bus - No Spark

[the miz]

Let's do the bang-it out get it running diagnosis.

A) Adjust your points to matchbook/.016" on a lobe, doesn't really matter.

B) Rotate engine to close points after adjustment is complete.

C) Turn on ignition. Remove coil wire from center of distributor cap. With this wire 1/4" from bare metal, pry the points open with a screwdriver. There will be a slight spark at the points if you inadvertently ground the screwdriver, but we are looking for a healthy spark at the coil wire each time you pry the points open. Shut off ignition.

C) Yes - go to D.
C) No - check coil resistance between (+) and (-) 3 ohms. Replace with known good coil if necessary.

D) Put cap back on. Dump a tablespoon of good gasoline down the carburetor throat, put air filter cover back on, move quickly, try to start with gas pedal to floor. Does it catch? If it starts, relase gas pedal so engine doesn't rev unnecessarily.

Report back.

Again, thanks to all of you who have replied with suggestions!
So today I picked up a feeler gauge and a multimeter on my way home from work, hoping for a good night in the garage...
Here's what happened:
-adjusted points to .016 on lobe
-turned engine to the flat spots to close points (which was pretty tough)
-tried to perform spark test: no spark
-tested resistance across coil: 3ohm resistance
-tried to start anyway, after dumping some gas down the carb throat, as expected-didn't work...will turn, but won't catch.

So-back to the same confusing issue from the weekend: coil is OK,it passes the resistance test and it worked in Belle Plaine's bus. So, it seems that there is power to the coil-but no spark from the coil to the distributor...I think this is where I am stuck, unless I am missing something.

Side notes:
-I did clean up the contact points on my tranny ground strap- just 'cause.
-we did try to jump start the bus off of my Jetta the other day

Thanks again for the continued help!

[SlowLane]

Could be your points aren't grounding.

Simple test: disconnect points wire from coil. Ensure points are closed (ie. between lobes). Use ohms function of multimeter to confirm continuity between engine case and the points wire connector. It should read zero ohms. If high resistance, peek inside your distributor and make sure the tiny internal ground strap is in place.

[bigbore]

did you clean the points? seen it many times a little dirt/oil just the oil from your finger will do it no spark.

[Amskeptic]

-tried to perform spark test: no spark
-tested resistance across coil: 3ohm resistance

So, it seems that there is power to the coil-but no spark from the coil to the distributor...I think this is where I am stuck, unless I am missing something.

Double check black wire (+) from ignition switch is going to coil #15, green wire to distributor is coming from coil #1. In very rare cases, points are accidentally grounding themselves out. Believe it or not, the moveable point must be fully insulated from all contact with any any metal grounding. That means the spring that closes the points is fully insulated too. The plastic square where the wire comes through the distributor should be looked at see if there is any frayed or pulled green wire. The clear plastic on the points themselves must be secure in its hole in the stationary point assembly. I expect you will find the problem soon, very soon.
ColinCrystalBall

[the miz]

did you clean the points? seen it many times a little dirt/oil just the oil from your finger will do it no spark.

So I gave this a try, gave the points a wipe with an isopropyl soaked paper towel...thanks for the good idea!

[the miz]

Could be your points aren't grounding.

Simple test: disconnect points wire from coil. Ensure points are closed (ie. between lobes). Use ohms function of multimeter to confirm continuity between engine case and the points wire connector. It should read zero ohms. If high resistance, peek inside your distributor and make sure the tiny internal ground strap is in place.

So, I'm not 100% sure, but maybe we could be on to something here...I tried this test with 1 lead on the green wire and one on the block, it bounced around for a bit, but ended up settling out in the 0.8-2.1ohm range over the several times I performed the test. That tiny ground strap is in place, however.
Thanks for the suggestion-

[SlowLane]

I tried this test with 1 lead on the green wire and one on the block, it bounced around for a bit, but ended up settling out in the 0.8-2.1ohm range over the several times I performed the test.

Close enough to zero. Digital meters never read zero ohms. This establishes that your points are grounding when they should be.

Now test to see if they're grounding when they shouldn't be. Repeat the test, but with the points open, either by turning the engine so that the points are riding on a lobe (preferable) or by opening them manually with something non-conductive (eg. clean popsicle stick). Using a metal screwdriver may accidentally ground them out if you're not careful. For this test you want to see infinite resistance.

[the miz]

[album][/album]

Now test to see if they're grounding when they shouldn't be. Repeat the test, but with the points open, either by turning the engine so that the points are riding on a lobe (preferable) or by opening them manually with something non-conductive (eg. clean popsicle stick). Using a metal screwdriver may accidentally ground them out if you're not careful. For this test you want to see infinite resistance.

OK, I'm back- so I just performed this test: Points open (on lobe) one lead on green wire one on the block, resistance started at 0- and then climbed at a rate of ~1ohm/second with no signs of stopping...performed the test 3 times with identical results, stopped each test in the 30-40 ohm range. So, I am thinking this eliminates the points as the problem spot.
Also- I double checked the items that Colin had mentioned in his most recent reply:
-hot wire attached to coil on + side (check)
-green wire attached to coil on - side (check)
-no fraying in green wire to black plastic plug (check)
-no fraying in wire to condenser (check)

So- while I was in the engine bay this morning, I went back to my original supposition that we must have screwed something simple up when we reinstalled the engine. So I took a long hard look at the photo I got from the PO (before I drove the bus from AZ to MN) and then what we had done upon the reinstall...the relay jumped out at me. Maybe I am on a pointless tangent here, but does anyone think that the ground wire and the red wire(currently situated at 3:00 and 12:00 respectively) got transposed?
Here is the potential photographic evidence:

Relay as it was when the bus ran:[album]image_id=317[/album]

Relay as it is now:[album]image_id=316[/album]

...could this be it?! ...or am I off track.

Thanks again for all of the help and suggestions!

[the miz]

Here is the potential photographic evidence:
Relay as it was when the bus ran:

...now with the photo of the relay when the bus ran:

relay-po.png (64.11 KiB) Viewed 2938 times

[the miz]

...and a photo of the relay now:

vwengine 001.JPG (64.67 KiB) Viewed 2938 times

...thoughts?

[Lanval]

...and a photo of the relay now:

vwengine 001.JPG

...thoughts?

get a multi-meter and start testing the outputs on the relay is the brute force method; otherwise, a wiring diagram (don't have the bentley here, if it would help, and I'm not sure it would) will tell you what the points on the relay should be doing. Check around online and you'll get a value for each of the relay pins by #; #30, #86, etc.

Best,

Michael L

[Amskeptic]

the relay jumped out at me.

Which relay is this? Help us out. The more thorough you are, the more specific answers can be.
Colin

[the miz]

the relay jumped out at me.

Which relay is this? Help us out. The more thorough you are, the more specific answers can be.
Colin

I wish I could help out with a better, more thorough description, but, most things shown in Bentley bear no resemblance to what is in my engine bay. This is the only relay in my engine bay:

see it there in the upper left hand corner near the brake booster line and the ac lines? I think that it is where the "double relay" that would be found in a bus with FI would be.

When we removed the engine, we disconnected the black ground wire from the relay and the red choke wire (at the 6:00 position)from the choke...so since we only disconnected the one wire from the relay, I can't imagine why the other red (non choke) wire would be in the wrong spot now...but if you look at the pictures I put up earlier, that is kind of how it looks (at least to me). I'm sorry that the first picture is of poor quality, but take a look and see if it looks to you like the wires are in different positions in the different pictures. Look specifically at the 12 and 3 o'clock positions(with respect to the front of the bus).
I am assuming that the other black (non-ground) wire and the other red (non choke) wire must be power in and out of the relay? I don't know-it just struck me that maybe some wires got crossed in the process here...and was wondering if it could be the source of my problem or not...I might go out into the garage after the kids are in bed and try to find out "the hard way"
thanks again!

[Lanval]

It is, in fact, exactly where the double relay would be. Probably it is some sort of home brew relay-setup in order to run the engine. I suspect this is the problem. The protraining manual will tell what is supposed to be there, and what those wires are doing; the bentley will do so as well, just with less clarity (imo).

It could also be some sort of hot-start relay, but usually that sort of thing is inline with another relay, as here: See step 5

http://www.ratwell.com/technical/EngineRemoval.html

You can go here for wiring diagrams, though I think they are less useful than either the protraining manual or the Bentley; the Haynes manual has info on the carburetor setup, since it was originally published in the UK, and the European vanagons had carburetors well into the Vanagon run.

You can look here for info on carburetor setups:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/man ... idf/08.jpg

All of that is reasonable, if not always helpful, but I would still start with the protraining manual, a multi-meter and a flashlight. What are those wires? Where do they go? Which ones have 12v and which do not? What is hot on the relay when key is off? When key is on? Start by figuring out what the relay does. Then you can decide if it's doing what it is supposed to do, and whether it is causing you trouble or not.

Best,

Michael L

[the miz]

Maybe I am on a pointless tangent here, but does anyone think that the ground wire and the red wire(currently situated at 3:00 and 12:00 respectively) got transposed?

...could this be it?! ...or am I off track.

...sorry to waste your time on this divergence from the true problem, but after closer examination of blown up photos I have come to realize that all wires on the relay are hooked up as they always have been. Oh well...back to the drawing board.