Oregon72 engine rebuild

Westy78 · Post by **Westy78** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:14 pm

So glad I have FI right now. It seems so much more simple. When it's running right that is. Sorry Troy, my knowledge of carbs is zero to none.

Bookwus · Post by **Bookwus** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:15 pm

Hiya Troy,

Oregon72 wrote:......... I still don't think I'm doing this stuff right.

Patience, patience.

The difficult takes some time to master; the impossible takes a little longer.

dhoch14 · Post by **dhoch14** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:22 pm

Westy78 wrote:So glad I have FI right now. It seems so much more simple. When it's running right that is. Sorry Troy, my knowledge of carbs is zero to none.

dick. just kidding. :)

Troy.........I may be free tomorrow night. I've got a nasty cold, but I can probably spare a few minutes to help a brother out. You've got my number via our PMs.

Oregon72 · Post by **Oregon72** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:32 pm

dhoch14 wrote: Troy.........I may be free tomorrow night. I've got a nasty cold, but I can probably spare a few minutes to help a brother out. You've got my number via our PMs.

Hope you feel better. I'm leaving to Boise tomorrow for work and I'll be back Friday late. If you are around on Saturday morning to help this dim bulb of a brother out I could REALLY use it.

Post by **Amskeptic** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:57 am

Oregon72 wrote:
dhoch14 wrote: Troy.........I may be free tomorrow night. I've got a nasty cold, but I can probably spare a few minutes to help a brother out. You've got my number via our PMs.
Hope you feel better. I'm leaving to Boise tomorrow for work and I'll be back Friday late. If you are around on Saturday morning to help this dim bulb of a brother out I could REALLY use it.

And please, I will talk you through it if you cover my cell phone charges.
Colin

dhoch14 · Post by **dhoch14** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:04 am

Oregon72 wrote:
dhoch14 wrote: Troy.........I may be free tomorrow night. I've got a nasty cold, but I can probably spare a few minutes to help a brother out. You've got my number via our PMs.
Hope you feel better. I'm leaving to Boise tomorrow for work and I'll be back Friday late. If you are around on Saturday morning to help this dim bulb of a brother out I could REALLY use it.

Perfect. I've got an open weekend. I may not have a car on Sat, but we can figure something out.

I was actually planning this out in my head much of last night and going through the steps of dialing in those dual carbs (sleeping problems suck). I think I'm ready to go. Hopefully we won't have to interrupt Colin from building out some more VW Bus merchandise sits. :)

-dave

Gypsie · Post by **Gypsie** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:41 am

As with any instrument, tuning the equipment can be complex and takes practice.

I was terrified to even touch the AFM the first time and now I feel like I have at least an apprentice's understanding and do not fear cog or screw adjustments and their interplay over the rpm spectrum.

I will just repeat tis sentiment: So glad I have FI right now. It seems so much more simple. When it's running right that is.

There are still dozens of areas that can have a major impact on performance, from vacuum connections to electrical components, but the more I diddle the more comfortable I am with diagnosis and repair.

You'll get it.

This as well gets much praise:

Balancing carbs is an art that I have yet to get over my fear of. It truly scrambles your brains. I've done it several times with my Weber IDFs. It sucks. But your engine will thank you.

The process of grokking these techniques takes time to digest. Fear is your enemy and your friend at the same time. It will keep you from getting all wiggy with changes and adjustments but can also get in the way of grasping the full "vision" (ala dashpot futzing...). But your engine will thank you.

You might consider getting a remote starter while you are doing this for ease of restarting after it dies out. You could borrow mine if you wanted. If so let me know before Sat and I will try to get it to Dhoch. (Leaving early Sat morn)

I suggest making some more efforts to dial in, and then consider good close inspection and possible cleaning/rebuild of the carbs after you have exhausted the options.

This thing could have been all out of whack, adjustment wise, to compensate for jet constriction and/or other component malfunctinons. As I recall you just reinstalled the carbs as they were pulled off and set to a starting point.

You will get it, you have a solid engine and now you just have to get fuel delivery dialed.

Good luck.

Q for the group: Can the jets be pulled and cleaned without rebuilding the carb?

Post by **Sluggo** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:50 am

Gypsie wrote:Q for the group: Can the jets be pulled and cleaned without rebuilding the carb?

On Webers & Delortos, Yes. On stock, I have no idea. On the the 34PICT3 for my Beetle you can.

dhoch14 · Post by **dhoch14** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:54 am

Q for the group: Can the jets be pulled and cleaned without rebuilding the carb?

Yes, you can easily do it with the carbs off, and maybe with the carbs on. But why would you? I wouldn't do an additional work unless I have tried to properly dial them in first. I personally don't like to introduce the potential for another variable error until I have confirmed all other points of failure are ok.

Gypsie, thanks for offering your help on this. With 2 people, a remote starter isn't needed. All of the carb tuning is done with the engine running (and exhaust in your face :) ). I'm not worried about the engine stalling when a pilot cutoff is pulled as the carbs are not dialed in properly. The engine should drop RPMS (400-500 roughly----subject to face checking), but not die out. Once we go through the mixture & balancing, the pilot cutsoffs are last. That piece of the pie is for fine tuning each side of the engine. Hopefully, the engine will not die out at that point. I'm confident we wil get Troy running well.......well enough until Mr. CK comes to town.

-dave

Gypsie · Post by **Gypsie** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:30 pm

dhoch14 wrote:[ I wouldn't do an additional work unless I have tried to properly dial them in first. I personally don't like to introduce the potential for another variable error until I have confirmed all other points of failure are ok.
-dave

Agreed. Adjust and dial (esp with experience at the table) will likely resolve the current issues. Just curious about the Jet cleaning possibilities for my own knowledge base.

tristessa · Post by **tristessa** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:05 pm

Posting this in here because both of the stock-dual-carb locals are paying attention to this thread.

There are a couple of '73 Bays at the Pick-N-Pull (formerly U-Pull-It, formerly Rose City Auto Wrecking) on NE Columbia out near St. Johns. One still had the driver-side carb, paper-filter air cleaner and air-injection pump stuff (no linkage), the other I didn't think to check .. was too offended by the wheel-well/bulkhead butchery done for the Cadillac front-bench-seat installation.

There's also a purple-painted Bug of early-'70s vintage (Gypsie, get yerself a fender!), two or three WBX Vanagons, and a 1970 Audi of indeterminate model, engine in that thing looks like a precursor to the Porsche 924 mill...

Post by **Amskeptic** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:28 pm

Troy Thou Shalt:

I) Have Gladness In Thy Heart For Thou Dost Have An Engine That Runs

II) Adjust the valves to a trapped .006" then minus a little for an easy slide. Make sure the blade gets trapped before you then find the nice slide spot. This is to get rid of any slop in the valve train.

III) Check the idle cut-off solenoids for correct seating. Use the 11mm (?) open end wrench, snug but not stupid. Check central idling solenoid likewise, and if it has a rubber o-ring, subsitute it with a copper washer.

IV) Stand there and admire your engine. Check the oil with ego, "hell ya it's clean I just rebuilt it".

V) Have Master Journeyman Assistant First Class dhoch14 step on the accelerator a little while you set both chokes open (vertical)simultaneously. Tell MJAFC to release the accelerator, and this will ensure that the fast idle links are not trying to push open the throttles like they customarily would on a cold start.

VI) Adjust the throttle stop screws so that they DO NOT TOUCH the carburetors, then you will make them barely touch, then you will go in an additional 1/2 turn only.

VII) Make sure that the fast idle links are still free of chokes trying to push open the throttles. If one has re-engaged, you must hold choke plates open and push the throttles to get them off the fast idle cams. Snap loose the link on the right carb throttle lever. Its socket should line up easily with the ball. If not, here is your chance to figure out what the heck to do with the 10mm synchronizer screw provided for your convenience. Go fool with the screw. See which way to turn it to make the link go up or down. Turning the screw in whichever direction that makes the link go up is for a right carb flowing less than the left. Make a lifelong note of which way the screw must turn to make the link go up and down. NOW THEN, can you adjust the synchronizer screw to make the link barely barely pick up the throttle lever as you snap it back on the ball joint? Sure you can.

Warm it up good, particularly if it is cold outside. Your engine is still so tight that it WILL NOT RUN on one carb. That is OK.

What we will do is a rough approximation, because we can do that when we are good, and we are good, ask dhoch14, he's good.

Instead of taking the central idling circuit out of the equation, we are going to do the rpm drop mixture test with the central idling circuit participating all the while, why not? See which side drops more than the other. Make a note of it. Then you can get the central idling circuit out of the way (don't forget to also remove the vacuum retard) with both carbs on at all times to keep it running, and do your finger/hose mixture test.
If too lean, 1/4 turn to the side that dropped more.
If too rich, 1/4 turn IN to the side that dropped less.

Now bring back central + retard and adjust the mixture and idle rpm.
I want a FULL report on how it went. Don't MAKE me DRIVE OUT THERE, because I WILL . . .

tristessa · Post by **tristessa** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:39 pm

Amskeptic wrote: Don't MAKE me DRIVE OUT THERE, because I WILL . . .

It's 28*F at my house right now .. you SURE you wanna drive out here?

Post by **Amskeptic** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:47 pm

tristessa wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: Don't MAKE me DRIVE OUT THERE, because I WILL . . .
It's 28*F at my house right now .. you SURE you wanna drive out here?

I will do what is necessary. Go get RIOMX sorted on the way home too.

Gypsie · Post by **Gypsie** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:26 pm

oooooooh....

Troy you better do what he says, he sounds serious.....

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Oregon72 engine rebuild