Wdollie6 Bus Thread

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by wdollie6 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:11 am

When I got home from work last night, I went into the garage prepared to remove the fire wall and solve whatever problem existed with fuel or vent lines. What I found was a small but active gas stain under the bus along with the associated odor. Good news, I was hopeful it would be as simple as following the gas trail to identify the culprit, it was! The fuel pump (I believe it is the original) was leaking from two places, the gasket at the four screw end of the pump and at the outlet hose (not technically the pump I suppose). After checking the screws, most were a 1/2 turn or so loose so while I was in there also checked all other fasteners on the pump, most needed some snugging. The cause of the hose leak was a crimp clamp (provided in German Supply kit) which wasn't up to the task, I replaced with a screw clamp and magically no more leaks at the pump. Took it for a test drive and gas smell is gone. Now understood why the smell became worse as rpm/mph increased. I wonder how much more time I have with the original pump? I purchased a "new" backup from BD when I first started the project but the reviews aren't great, hopeful the original will just keep pumping along...

With this out of the way worked on sealing up the sliding door, adjusted the top roller by moving slightly in upper bracket (thanks Colin), leak has been addressed (haven't messed with the bottom support as of yet). Also did some non-standard sealing work on the front doors as I realized there was nothing I could do to seal them especially around the upper front, as mentioned in previous posts, the doors and openings are rough, to say the least. I used a small amount of adhesive back gasketing material to seal the area in question with good results, not pretty but it is functional (water test indicated no more leaks). The only time you see it is when the door is open, could be worse. If only I could find a color matched gasket material, Sierra Yellow anyone...?

Tonight will work on ball joint boots as mine are shot (Colin and I will replace on next go around). I am going to try to protect them temporarily with some flexible product. I saw another thread where someone used saran wrap, apparent successfully, as a short term fix. All I want to do for the ME trip is to keep the dirt and water out of the joints. Any other thoughts out there?
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by wdollie6 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:19 am

Colin, took some pictures but need to shrink the size as too large to post here. Will do that down the road.

Another question, since I have never had Fat Boy out on an Interstate, what should I expect from a speed standpoint? A little nervous about running along at 65- mph with the crazies flying by at 80+mph, which I would be one of when I am driving my truck. I reviewed your shift point and top speed post but wasn't sure what to expect out of a rebuilt 1700 Westy???
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:16 am

wdollie6 wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:19 am
Colin, took some pictures but need to shrink the size as too large to post here. Will do that down the road.

Another question, since I have never had Fat Boy out on an Interstate, what should I expect from a speed standpoint? A little nervous about running along at 65- mph with the crazies flying by at 80+mph, which I would be one of when I am driving my truck. I reviewed your shift point and top speed post but wasn't sure what to expect out of a rebuilt 1700 Westy???

It will tell you. 65-70 is good for a well-balanced engine, 70-75 works with those few engines blessed with good timing and fuel delivery and balance. You have to determine the balance by feel. If it is thrashy, back off. If you have a known issue, like a weird vibration moment just above idle to 2,000 rpm that suggests a pressure plate imbalance, then you might be relegated to 60-65. You will learn what your engine likes over the miles/years.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by wdollie6 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:46 am

Sounds like it may be best to utilize secondary roads until I have a feel for the engine. Will route through the slow but scenic Vermont/NH mountains vs. the scramble that will be occurring on the Mass. Pike. In my early 20s used to do this routinely with a 63 bug that I knew nothing about, safety in ignorance I suppose. I know too much about FATBOY; old (probably original) fuel pump, old alternator, original steering box, etc., what could go wrong. We'll know soon enough.
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:11 pm

wdollie6 wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:46 am
Sounds like it may be best to utilize secondary roads until I have a feel for the engine.

Then you will know how it likes *secondary roads*. To learn how it likes interstates, you need to drive on the interstate. You have a Type 4 engine, it'll do fine. Just yesterday I was stuck at 35 mph in 3rd gear with a wheezy 1600 on US-12 going over the MacDonald Pass, because the engine liked 35 mph in 3rd gear to do its work.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by wdollie6 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:10 am

Colin, you were absolutely correct, again! This engine was incredible, on the interstate it purred along at 70mph (I had pedal left but didn't want to push it) for 6 hours with one or two breaks for gas. It sounded great and the gas mileage was unbelievable, 22.6 mpg, never would have believed that was possible, will validate once I fill up next. At the reserve line I still have 5 gallons in the tank, not sure that can be adjusted but doesn't matter now that I know.

The only problem I have is that the 'new' carb springs I made did not take the heat soak well, after running hard the idle would not come back to normal. After hearing this run on condition for too long, stop and go traffic from MA to NH, I pulled off and checked while still hot, the carb springs were floppy had not tension at all, huh? Didn't think much about that when I picked the spring size... So I am off to a FLAP today to see what they may have that would work better in this application.

Towards the end of the trip I started hearing a clunking in the front when braking, haven't figured that out as of yet. It steered fine, braked fine but when I first step on or left off the brakes hear the noise. I will crawl under before driving again to see if I can find the source just not sure where to start other than front brake area.

Bottom line is first long trip was awesome, unbelievable performance from the engine from both a power standpoint and mileage. Amazing what a confidence booster that is, especially when your 93 year old father is riding next to you. He hadn't been in one since the early 70s, needless to say he was impressed! Now if I could only make it less ugly, although did get a lot of peace signs and second looks from young ladies. Also had a blue bus in Kennebunkport area flailing his arms at me, could only do the logical thing, returned the favor.
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:03 pm

wdollie6 wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:10 am
Colin, you were absolutely correct, again! This engine was incredible, on the interstate it purred along at 70mph (I had pedal left but didn't want to push it) for 6 hours with one or two breaks for gas. It sounded great and the gas mileage was unbelievable, 22.6 mpg, never would have believed that was possible, will validate once I fill up next. At the reserve line I still have 5 gallons in the tank, not sure that can be adjusted but doesn't matter now that I know.

The only problem I have is that the 'new' carb springs I made did not take the heat soak well, after running hard the idle would not come back to normal. After hearing this run on condition for too long, stop and go traffic from MA to NH, I pulled off and checked while still hot, the carb springs were floppy had not tension at all, huh? Didn't think much about that when I picked the spring size... So I am off to a FLAP today to see what they may have that would work better in this application.

Towards the end of the trip I started hearing a clunking in the front when braking, haven't figured that out as of yet. It steered fine, braked fine but when I first step on or left off the brakes hear the noise. I will crawl under before driving again to see if I can find the source just not sure where to start other than front brake area.

Bottom line is first long trip was awesome, unbelievable performance from the engine from both a power standpoint and mileage. Amazing what a confidence booster that is, especially when your 93 year old father is riding next to you. He hadn't been in one since the early 70s, needless to say he was impressed! Now if I could only make it less ugly, although did get a lot of peace signs and second looks from young ladies. Also had a blue bus in Kennebunkport area flailing his arms at me, could only do the logical thing, returned the favor.

If you can get the hanging idle again, see if the throttle cable end spring can bring your idle down before monkeying with the individual carburetor springs. Just pull back on the end of the throttle cable. If it brings idle down, enhance that spring only. If you have to do the individual springs, know that they will exacerbate throttle bushing wear.

If you are getting 22+ mpg at 70 mph, check a spark plug for any signs of bleaching around the metal shell just inboard and below the threads or any signs of white powderishness on the ground electrode. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and we want to make sure that your outstanding fuel economy is not at the expense of a happy engine.

... still, you just got a taste of how much I enjoy driving in countrywide circles in a VW bus.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:20 am

22mpg sounds like you are running a bit lean. So how hot is the engine ? If you want lots of looks from young women I'd suggest getting a ghia as in the summer all the girls point, smile and wave when I drive around Seattle in my Ghia convertible. Not too many cars look like a sexy Ghia these days on the road.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by wdollie6 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:44 am

Good point on the engine temperature, since I have no gauges I don't really know but when I investigated the hanging idle on the hot engine I was still able to grab and hold on the dipstick with no problem. A few degrees more and I might not have been able to. While I know this isn't the best indicator it did give me a comfort level. I'll check plugs but I have no pinging, no backfiring no other indicators of issues, at least at this point. The engine was very responsive and idled great once I was able to get the throttles fully closed.

Colin, the springs were literally useless when warm as they were providing no tension at all at idle. I had to manually close the throttle a few mm each time I tried it. The FLAPs had limited supply but I found some that were similar tension but slightly shorter. I am still concerned about the bushings but I don't believe I added much extra load, some for sure but I don't think it is enough to cause premature wear.

I did feel good about the mileage but now you have me worrying again, as I said I'll check the plugs. If I have to richen it, I will need to open up the carb screws slightly? All other settings stay the same? I didn't bring my synchronizer so not much more I'll be able to do.
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:10 am

wdollie6 wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:44 am
Good point on the engine temperature, since I have no gauges I don't really know but when I investigated the hanging idle on the hot engine I was still able to grab and hold on the dipstick with no problem. A few degrees more and I might not have been able to. While I know this isn't the best indicator it did give me a comfort level. I'll check plugs but I have no pinging, no backfiring no other indicators of issues, at least at this point. The engine was very responsive and idled great once I was able to get the throttles fully closed.

Colin, the springs were literally useless when warm as they were providing no tension at all at idle. I had to manually close the throttle a few mm each time I tried it. The FLAPs had limited supply but I found some that were similar tension but slightly shorter. I am still concerned about the bushings but I don't believe I added much extra load, some for sure but I don't think it is enough to cause premature wear.

I did feel good about the mileage but now you have me worrying again, as I said I'll check the plugs. If I have to richen it, I will need to open up the carb screws slightly? All other settings stay the same? I didn't bring my synchronizer so not much more I'll be able to do.

Aw don't let us internet ninnies get you all anxious. I am pretty sure things are peachy in there. Just check an easy-to-get-to plug and report back. The cure is simple. Add an 1/8" turn to each mixture screw (CCW), if warranted.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by wdollie6 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:43 am

Ok, spark plugs look great no whiteness anywhere on the plug, but not black either, I suppose this is good?

I drove to Portland to visit a family friend who happens to be a Lobsterman. He had a basket of 18 lobsters, wow, talk about a great dinner for all 12 of us...

My carb spring change out didn't help as I had hoped as by the time I got to Portland the high idle was back. When we stopped at the wharf I jumped out checked the springs and again they were useless. Fought my way back to the rental house and this morning I trimmed another 3/8" off the springs, recrafted the ends, went for a long ride and wallah we have the much anticipated idle even after hot. I don 't believe I have put too much load on the bushings, time will tell.

Colin I looked at the large singular spring but did not see how it would help with the carb springs, seems to only help with the pedal return.
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:27 pm

wdollie6 wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:43 am
I looked at the large singular spring but did not see how it would help with the carb springs, seems to only help with the pedal return.
True, except when the throttle cable end is accidentally adjusted a smidge too tight and the little c-clip is right on the throttle crossbar thingamajiggy. But, of course yours is a "72, and I was answering with 1973 recall. Yes, the leverage geometry of the '72s is grossly inferior to the later ones, and has those dorky springs at weird angles trying to anchor is odd places, so yeah, crank those springs until it behaves.
ColinInPortland
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by wdollie6 » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:56 am

Well after driving back from Maine fighting the chattering clutch at every traffic jam I am resolved to pulling the engine and finding out what the heck is going on in there. The good news is that the engine ran great, especially with the new and improved carb springs in place. Still have a little delay in return to idle, a few seconds but that may not be a bad thing. Mileage dropped somewhat but that included some city and local driving, still in the low 20 mpg range.

The bad news I now have an oil leak at the engine to transmission location that I will have to address, so much for a leak free VW Bus. Anything else I should do while I am in there, beyond determining the cause of the chattering clutch and replacing a seal? Remember this bus only has 750 miles on it since the engine was rebuilt, my assumption is I somehow screwed up the front seal install on my first go around, we shall see.
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:48 pm

wdollie6 wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:56 am
Well after driving back from Maine fighting the chattering clutch at every traffic jam I am resolved to pulling the engine and finding out what the heck is going on in there. The good news is that the engine ran great, especially with the new and improved carb springs in place. Still have a little delay in return to idle, a few seconds but that may not be a bad thing. Mileage dropped somewhat but that included some city and local driving, still in the low 20 mpg range.

The bad news I now have an oil leak at the engine to transmission location that I will have to address, so much for a leak free VW Bus. Anything else I should do while I am in there, beyond determining the cause of the chattering clutch and replacing a seal? Remember this bus only has 750 miles on it since the engine was rebuilt, my assumption is I somehow screwed up the front seal install on my first go around, we shall see.

Well, Lucky You. They are likely related, chatter + main seal leak. You may need to do serious oil contamination remediation on the clutch disk (GumOut can lift oil out of the linings) and sand the begeezus out of the flywheel and pressure plate friction surfaces followed by GumOut paper towel contamination lift. If you have the original pressure plate/flywheel, make sure you have match marks before you disassemble. If the engine is acting nicely balanced, line them up on reassembly. If the engine vibrates, you might want to gamble and move the marks 180* away from each other. If you have a trashy Brazilian pressure plate, replace it with a nice old one.

Road Warrior original flywheel and pressure plate at 515,000 miles after sanding/cleaning:

Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings From New York

Post by wdollie6 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:08 pm

Engine out, leak analysis complete, I think...

1. Pressure plate and clutch disk appear to be the originals as they both have LUK imprinted on them. The pressure plate is flat on both sides meaning the feet the release bearing push against are straight, not worn or out of alignment, the clutch surface is flat as well. The clutch disk has plenty of life left in it, everything looks good. Both items have to be cleaned up though, greasy/oily, will sand the pressure plate and Gumout the disk. Hopefully will shine like yours when done.

2. The flywheel looks fine, accept for it needs a good sanding. O-ring was new and still is new however the felt seal for the needle bearing was completely destroyed (bad install?), needle bearing is fine. Appeared to be some small leakage from that area, will replace the felt seal. The front seal looks great (it was new 750 miles ago) and does not appear to be leaking however have ordered a replacement to be safe. Checked the needle bearing and it is in good shape (new as well), re-greased with just a tad of moly. All oil plugs were peened and JB Welded when reassembled a year or so ago, no leaks.

3. The guide tube (original) was rough, didn't realize the importance so simply reused the original which I had cleaned rust off. The release bearing grabbed the entire length of the guide tube even after additional grease, replacing that as well. Could that cause chatter? :scratch: The release bearing itself is VW stamped, original ?, and was very smooth, not replacing it at this time.

4. The oil leak culprit jumped out at me as soon as I removed the guide tube, the rear transmission seal was weeping/dripping. I cleaned the area up and moved the input shaft around and sure enough could see a drip forming. VW stamp on the seal so assume that is original as well. The sad thing is I remember having ordered a replacement, sure enough dug through my part box and found it, damn. When I first checked the leak it did not smell like engine oil and after smelling the accumulated mess in the bottom of the bell housing realized it was transmission oil.

First question can the transmission seal be replaced without draining the transmission oil? Secondly what is the proper method of install for the felt seal at the needle bearing, obviously I screwed it up the first time want to get it right this time around. Final question, anything I am missing?

Thanks Colin and all, hate to be a PIA but want to make sure I get this right before putting it back together.
1972 Superbeetle Convertible
1972 Westy Bus
1972 Beetle
1970 Fastback
1966 6V Beetle with Sunroof

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