Gary The Grün

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tommu
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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by tommu » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:55 pm

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
tommu wrote: I think it's runnnig rich and perhaps, after fixing some pretty bad vacuum leaks, I need to fiddle with the AFM. A frightening prospect.
Colin has an app for that...err. a posting here in the tech section...check it out, good info.
I saw that. That's what made me frightened. :scratch:

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tommu
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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by tommu » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:30 am

I'm about the point where I want to install my LM2 and begin tuning a little. However I may have slight leak from exhaust manifold to head gaskets.

Questions:

- Should I remediate this before going any further.
- Is there a straightforward way to reseat or do I need to remove the entire exhaust?
- Is Ratwell's writeup a good resource to follow? http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Exhaust.html

I have new copper gaskets on their way but I really do not enjoy removing exhausts and have had no experience with these Bus ones. Are there any tricks to doing removing and reinstalling everything?

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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by asiab3 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:57 pm

tommu wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:30 am
Questions:
1. Should I remediate this before going any further.
2. Is there a straightforward way to reseat or do I need to remove the entire exhaust?
3. Is Ratwell's writeup a good resource to follow? http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Exhaust.html
Preamble: Are you CERTAIN it is the manifold-to-head copper gasket junction leaking? If so:

1. I think you should. Leaks AT the heads can be vacuum leaks, as the cam has a tiny bit of overlap of exhaust and intake strokes. The 2.0 exhaust valves and seats will appreciate a pressure-tight junction there.

2. Depends on the exhaust system, any other leaks, condition of the studs/heads, and your bench-pressing ability. For example, if the rest of the system is really rusted together, or it's a later system with 28 fasteners and zero other leaks, sometimes it is most efficient to drop the ENTIRE exhaust system from the heads, and take everything from the F pipes/U pipes/J pipes and the elbow and the crossover pipe straight down. (Muffler removal in that case is optional. I've done both, proceed as deemed necessary.) Does this make sense? On late setups where the hardware has been anti-seized correctly (AHEM!) then removing the manifold pipe is no big deal; four screws for the lower tin and two nuts on each head stud. Whenever removing exhaust hardware from a head, hit it with penetrating oil before, then begin loosening after a good soak. If any fastener becomes harder to turn, snug it back in the opposite direction and try again. Usually this back and forth nutting/bolting/screwing will allow any dirt/rust/gunk in the threads to alleviate itself and cause less harm. Zapping it out in one motion can and does harm the threads. Whenever I encounter rough fastener removal, I always chase the threads with a die and engine oil before coating the new fasteners with anti-seize and installing.

3. I don't think Ratwell does a good job of explaining diagnosis or removal of parts, but you WILL want to make sure the new gasket rings when you drop it on concrete; no ticks. Wolfsburg West sells good ones, but I'm not sure about other retailers. I also like a thin and even smearing of Ultra Copper RTV on the gasket before install; the sealing properties are nice but what I really enjoy is the RTV holding the gasket into the head while I fumble with the manifold pipe (or entire exhaust system.)

Clear as mud?
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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tommu
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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by tommu » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:35 pm

Much Clearer - thank you. I am not 100% certain where and how bad they are leaking just yet. This is a task that Jon let me know needed doing before selling me the the Bus. I will verify by running a shop vac test myself. If I see leaks at the manifold to head I assumed that would be the copper gaskets? I have these on order from Bus Depot.

I think the weight of the exhaust system requires me to take it down in pieces. Jon had the whole system ceramic coated and hadn't put many miles on the Bus so it shouldn't be too hard to remove. Better than something that's been in rain and salt for a decade.

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tommu
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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by tommu » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:58 pm

I'm having a hard time removing the f-pipe. The nuts are all off, one stud came clean out. After that I just can't pull the f-pipe out. I'm trying prying with wood, pulling on a strap and trying to jar it loose with a pry inside the pipe. I've been cleaning the rust out the stud threads with a pick and spraying with PB Blaster. I'm conscious that I don't want to strip thread on any studs. Is there some technique I've missed?

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Re: Gary The Grünt

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:00 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:00 am
tommu wrote:
TrollFromDownBelow wrote: I lubed mine when I first bought it ......ohhhh about 12 years ago. I noticed last year mine was squeaking when I went up and down the driveway. Started freaking out about all the worst case scenarios. Then I remembered it hadn't been lubed in quite a while. :pale: After a healthy lube job, the squeak went away.
I thought you only needed to lube them when they squeeked?
You people don't deserve to drive these fine automobiles . . .
Colin
(I lubricate the front beam every year, bigly)
That was deserved .... although from a mileage perspective, mine probably get lubed more frequently on a 12 year schedule than yours does on a 1 year schedule. :flower: :geek: :joker:
1976 VW Bus aka tripod
FI ...not leaky, and not so noisy...and she runs awesome!
hambone wrote: There are those out there with no other aim but to bunch panties. It's like arguing with a pretzel.
::troll2::

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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:09 pm

tommu wrote:
Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:58 pm
I'm having a hard time removing the f-pipe. The nuts are all off, one stud came clean out. After that I just can't pull the f-pipe out. I'm trying prying with wood, pulling on a strap and trying to jar it loose with a pry inside the pipe. I've been cleaning the rust out the stud threads with a pick and spraying with PB Blaster. I'm conscious that I don't want to strip thread on any studs. Is there some technique I've missed?
It has to be aligned right or it jams. Try pushing it back into place and then sloowly pull it off.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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tommu
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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by tommu » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:14 pm

I tried may gentle methods for some hours. I needed to use my Balljoint clamp in the end to hammer them free. The threads on the stud are pretty rusted and missing in places so I'm planning on replacing them all. I'll use tow nuts, the second as a lock nut and ease them out.
How much risk is there that the thread in the heads will strip doing this?

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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:26 pm

tommu wrote:
Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:14 pm
How much risk is there that the thread in the heads will strip doing this?
Enough of a risk that I do not pull them unless absolutely necessary. I save up stud replacements for engine overhaul time if I can, because then you can use heat without fear of catching stuff on fire.

WHAT I RECOMMEND (caps because I am IMPORTANT) is for you to get some good quality nuts and use one-per-stud as a die to clean up the threads as best you can. Use plenty of PB Blaster as cutting oil.
THEN
drill out the manifold flanges a couple of sizes to help you re-install the manifolds without ripping up the threads again. Remember to file the tops of the pipes smooth and in line with each other. Use a big flat bastard file.

Do NOT use self-locking nuts. They chew the studs weak. Use washers under regular nits, and plan tro re-torque your exhaust nuts frequently until they get rust-locked.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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tommu
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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by tommu » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:39 pm

I will do that. I think there are enough threads to do the job.

Stupid question - would true metal cutting oil but better than PB Blaster? Not meaning to be a smart ass - I have some on the shelf.

EDIT: Are you saying not use these:
Image
Or these:
Image



We live in a post-competence world so, to flow with the zeitgeist, I have a theory. Exhaust leaks have caused valve damage. My compression is

130 1
135 2
112 3
140 4

And Number 4 is the one port that was not leaking. Leakdown test on cylinder 3 carried out by Jon before selling showed 2% leak.

From eche_bus on the Samba:
Leakage (in percent) is as follows (Cold/Warm):
#1: 6 / 12
#2: 10 / 16
#3: 5 / 2 (I didn't think a 2% leakage was possible!)
#4: 7 / 6

Here are some pictures:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

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tommu
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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by tommu » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:53 pm

I found a crack in the weld to number 3 on the left manifold. I am planning on getting it welded. Is that wise or should I source a good used one?

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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:27 am

tommu wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:53 pm
I found a crack in the weld to number 3 on the left manifold. I am planning on getting it welded. Is that wise or should I source a good used one?
Can't answer that, not knowing the skill of the welder. Picking up a used manifold is not a bad idea.

For Robbie:

Do not ever remove the entire exhaust system as a unit. The exhaust studs actually come out of the heads at a slight angle that makes the tips of the studs further away from the center line of the car. Pulling the manifolds down together causes major stress on the studs and the threads.

Tommu, I like the shouldered nuts, but test to see if they tear into the threads on a sacrificial stud laying around somewhere.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by asiab3 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:48 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:27 am
Do not ever remove the entire exhaust system as a unit. The exhaust studs actually come out of the heads at a slight angle that makes the tips of the studs further away from the center line of the car. Pulling the manifolds down together causes major stress on the studs and the threads.
Noted, thank you!
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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tommu
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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by tommu » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:29 pm

Shouldered nuts appear not to be aggressive. I picking up a used manifold for the passenger side but that too had a crack in the same place. It is rather frustrating.

I spent the time hooking up EGR filter, pipe, valve and arm. Will be very interesting to see if it leaks or not. If this manifold problem goes on for much longer I might need to start degreasing the transmission. :-o

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Re: Gary The Grün

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:24 am

tommu wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:29 pm
Shouldered nuts appear not to be aggressive. I picking up a used manifold for the passenger side but that too had a crack in the same place. It is rather frustrating.

I spent the time hooking up EGR filter, pipe, valve and arm. Will be very interesting to see if it leaks or not. If this manifold problem goes on for much longer I might need to start degreasing the transmission. :-o
Frustrating because you paid for a piece of crap, or that all of these manifolds have been abused by people prying them? Looks like careful welding might be in your future.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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