80 Vanagon's shenanigans, what next?

[bosco53]

I've been gone a while for multiple reasons but here I am again. It has occurred to me that maybe there should be a "saga" forum? I'll spare you all most of mine this round though and try to get to the point.

If this belongs somewhere else, please feel free to scold away and I will move it to its rightful place.

The good: Over the holidays, after much preparation on my part, my family and I were able to enjoy an epic journey north from San Diego to my home town area of San Luis Obispo. There we had much holiday cheer with family and friends. The day after Christmas we headed east to Yosemite for a 3 day hangout of hiking and refueling our souls. We wanted to head east over the Sierra Nevada's to connect with I-395 south but to our disappointment, ALL the roads heading east-west within a days drive are closed throughout the winter. Our destination was Zion, Utah. We begrudgingly headed south back through Fresno to I-99 south to Bakersfield. There we took the 58 east through Tehachapi to our eventual rest stop in Phelan at my best friends parents house. After a day of rest and touch-ups on the bus, we started out towards Zion to spend the new year. Of course there was a stiff head wind the ENTIRE way. But man was it worth it. Unfortunately my little girl got sick and we had to cut our trip a couple days short to get home. Good thing we left when we did. As she proceeded to spend the next 36 days in the ICU. She's good now, finally. (I told you this was the abridged version.)

So 1825 miles later I was ecstatic! Bluey The Wonder Slug actually made the trip! And with (almost) ZERO hiccups! Which now brings us to...

The bad: Now that we were home and he sat in the garage while we attended to my daughter in the hospital, he was sounding a bit rough. Fast forward a couple weeks and some around town/short highway driving and he is down right lagging! After a quick compression check I confirmed my fears. Cylinders 1 and 2 we reading in the 60 PSI range. So, I parked him and began the tear down process.

This pretty much brings you up to today. The heads are off, ready to head to the shop for freshening up. Now I am staring at a mostly bare engine and wondering "what else should I do so this thing is reliable and I don't have to do this again anytime soon? And won't completely kill my already hurting pocket book?"

This is where you all (and Colin) come it! If you were in my position, and money WAS an object, what would be the top things you would make sure you did?

I already have a complete gasket kit, clutch kit, engine compartment seal, tune up stuff, can't remember what else showed up at the door recently...I would really like to do something about my tattered exhaust/heating system but outright replacing all that would basically require all my limbs and my unborn grandchildren. Other than cleaning the snot out of it, should I do anything with the engine/cylinders? Anything else I am not thinking of?

Thanks for all your time and efforts!

Some illustrations for your viewing pleasure...

The fun begins!












Bluey, literally losing his $hit.




All torn down

[luftvagon]

hello,
i'm a bit confused by the square headlights and the radiator grill.. the body looks spotless.. if you already have the radiator grill, this thing opens up possibilities for you...

so couple of questions - how many miles on this motor? has it been rebuilt previously? i am not much of a mechanic or engine builder, but... when you start opening things and fixing them, things quickly escalate. hence why I opted for a rebuilt engine by adrian at headflowmasters.. so far, i cant complain.. couple of oil leaks, but i'm also taxing it... ;)

now my advice is, don't skip out on upgrading or fixing electronics. inspect your wiring harness while you have it out. you will more than likely notice cracks. perfect time to get the injectors cleaned (including 5th), and to ensure they flow correctly. inspect wiring to the starter, and also clean-up contacts and replace ground strap, if you haven't already. Check/adjust AAR, ensure thermotime switch is operational. contemplate upgrading double relay to two regular relays with some diodes, and.... maybe, contemplate powering your ignition coil through the use of relay. perfect timing to refresh the alternator and change the belt.... Pertronix? I didn't care much for it, but it sure beat (non-existent) maintenance on the ol' points and condenser.

[Amskeptic]

I've been gone a while for multiple reasons but here I am again. It has occurred to me that maybe there should be a "saga" forum? I'll spare you all most of mine this round though and try to get to the point.

Too late! You are now in the Type 2 Saga Forum.

Of course there was a stiff head wind the ENTIRE way.
So 1825 miles later I was ecstatic! Bluey The Wonder Slug actually made the trip! And with (almost) ZERO hiccups! Which now brings us to...
Now that we were home and he sat in the garage while we attended to my daughter in the hospital, he was sounding a bit rough. Fast forward a couple weeks and some around town/short highway driving and he is down right lagging! After a quick compression check I confirmed my fears. Cylinders 1 and 2 we reading in the 60 PSI range.

A) A VW engine will kill itself trying to serve you and it will do so discretely. That headwind the ENTIRE way caused heat that expanded parts beyond their ability to contract. While the engine is hot, it will continue to work. Once it has cooled down, you get the combustion chamber leaks as evidenced in your photographs.

B) Any evidence of a deteriorated idle *must* be investigated immediately. Had there been a valve seat that let go, you could save the engine just before the grenade, had there been a valve on the cusp of burning, you could save it by re-adjusting the valves.

C) BEFORE tearing into an engine, it is a good idea to do some diagnostics other than the compression test, such as adjusting the valves and re-trying the compression test, and also doing a wet compression test to see if your numbers might go up due to annoyed piston rings, then checking for oil weep between cylinders and heads. I would have also done a head nut torque check just as I was removing the heads to see if there were any loosened head nuts. Two adjacent cylinders with low compression is usually just a head retorque. As it now stands, you need to fill all of the combustion chambers with gasoline or kerosene or even windshield washer fluid, to see if your valves are leaking. THEY MIGHT NOT BE. You might have the famous 2.0 piston scuff that occurs from hot headwinds without the modifications from the TSB. Carefully check for any evidence of seat recession! If your seats are exactly where they belong, and there are no cracks to be found, I would, against all tho$e other$ who $ell new head$' advice, reuse the heads. I do not see evidence that you were running especially lean, your combustion chambers/valves were not bleached white. I think you just scuffed a piston, and I think it is going to be #2. Let me know if #2 has scoring on its walls in excess of the others.

Good thing we left when we did, as she proceeded to spend the next 36 days in the ICU.

Please, tell us more. Anything relevant to other families on the road as to what signs might suggest the next 36 days in the ICU? A bug in the open-fire pancakes? Leech while swimming? A late afternoon bologna sandwich gone bad? Plastic poisoning from a sippy cup? Kiss from a sick deer at the petting zoo?

wondering "what else should I do so this thing is reliable and I don't have to do this again anytime soon? And won't completely kill my already hurting pocket book?"

Too Late!! Get a Dakota Digital CHT gauge so you can monitor destructive tendencies on windy days.
You are here with oil in your cylinders, I suggest a full teardown, notch the connecting rods, do not allow the heads to be flycut because you get only one chance here not to have to use sealing rings (did you have any between the heads and cylinders?).
Colin

[airkooledchris]

I, too, am confused by the fact that the face of your Vanagon shows a radiator opening. If this is indeed a 1980 model, did this body used to house a diesel model?

and if so, do you have to smog it?




from one of your exhaust pictures it looks like you are running the California import setup. I think I see an oxygen sensor in the exhaust - do you have this connected to the AFM in your setup usually, or did someone just use the California exhaust on an otherwise Federal setup?

Is there an EGR pipe/filter anywhere in the setup?



IF this is a Diesel body and you don't have to smog it in California, as someone put an aircooled motor into a Diesel body, then I would suggest ditching the California style exhaust system, especially if (as you indicated) it's on it's last legs anyway.

Pick up a federal drivers side heater box (which should be relatively cheap, check with Chris at BustedBus) - so you can convert your exhaust to the 72-74 style (which is also the 80-83 aircooled Federal Vanagon style.)

You may end up needing a different piece of tinware to route the heater hose up to the fan, but again this should be relatively cheap and readily available. (id check with Chris on this one also)

There's a ton of exhaust options available for the 72-74/80-83 style systems.

Valve adjustments on that drivers side with the CAT there and the California style heater box on that side is a royal PITA. It's also nice to get that damned CAT away from the valves on the 1/3 side, which run hot enough without a damned CAT right there next to it.




If this is a 1980 California specific model and you have to smog it as such, meaning the O2 sensor must be connected - you can still convert to the other exhaust. With a short body muffler you can fit a CAT in the federal style exhaust setup and run your O2 sensor to the CAT's test port. I would however disconnect the O2 sensor when you aren't getting smogged, as *IF* the AFM hasn't been messed with - it'll make it run crazy lean. Lean makes power and lots and lots of heat at the heads. (DD CHT GAUGE is important no matter what, at least for trending)

[Amskeptic]

Pick up a federal drivers side heater box
- so you can convert your exhaust to the 72-74 style
(which is also the 80-83 aircooled Federal Vanagon style.)

Will there be an issue with oval vs square port heads?

[Boxcar]

Deck the cases?
IF THE REBUILD VISITS SPLIT THE CASEville??

[Psucamper]

You can transition Vanagon type rectangular head exhaust ports to special heat exchangers that match up with earlier (and less expensive mufflers). The exchangers have the triangular outputs that exactly match the older style "tank" muffler inputs. Here are the exchangers p/n's: 039 256 091C (left) 039 256 093 A (right)
Tank muffler: 071 251 053E (no EGR connection)
JustKampers have these exchangers as their p/n's J10082 and J10640 @ about $260/ea.
Bus Boys have the 053E muffler @ $260
There's always the alternative of changing from Vanagon type cylinder heads to the oval port style and matching them up with an appropriate set of exchangers and the 053E muffler. Your particular circumstances determine the flow of $$.

[SlowLane]

The picture of the updated front end of your van threw me off too, but the metal air intake grills behind the rear windows clearly identify it as a 1980 model.

Assuming that it is not a former diesel van which has been converted to the aircooled gas engine (which would allow you to thumb your nose at California's smogging requirements) , I'm afraid you are going to be stuck with the exhaust, intake and ignition system you presently have. It does appear that you have the full CA-spec setup there. I see the ignition control module and idle stabilizer unit on the side of your engine compartment, as well as the convoluted exhaust routing to the catalytic converter which Chris noted. Don't waste too much time searching for the EGR plumbing: the 1980 model didn't have any EGR (makes me wonder why the EGR-less 1980 air plenum isn't a more sought-after item by those folks who are looking to delete their EGR).

So California requires you to have all of the original smog equipment intact. The CA-spec Vanagon had CA-specific ECU, wiring harnesss, double relay, AFM, coil, distributor, ignition module, idle stabilizer, and as noted before, exhaust system (with O2 sensor).

Federal systems of the day had a different ECU, wiring harness, double relay, AFM, ignition system and exhaust (without O2 sensor).
Note the last: if you are tempted to swap out the exhaust system for a federal one, you would need to figure out how to plug in the O2 sensor, and before you do, you should give some consideration to why the VW engineers came up with the goofy CA exhaust routing in the first place, instead of simply modifying the Federal setup. My bet is that they needed to make sure the O2 sensor stayed sufficiently hot enough to work correctly, and they just couldn't get it to do that with the Federal routing.

Also, if you're tempted to try and use heads and heat exchangers from an earlier bus, be aware that the hot air ducts and how they interface to the fan housing are completely different between the bus and the Vanagon.

I found when reassembling my engine that my exhaust manifolds didn't want to set square to the heads. Turns out that the flanges on the manifolds were not coplanar. I remedied this by buying a big honkin' file that was long enough to span both flanges and gently filing away until the flanges were coplanar. The manifolds then mated to the heads like a dream.

Colin is likely spot on with his diagnosis (he is the man, after all). If you can afford it, maybe consider sending your heads to Len Hoffman for his magic refurbishment, just for peace of mind.

[bosco53]

Ok, wow! Lots of good info here. Like always! Thanks to everyone! Sorry I left you all hanging for a bit. I sat down last night and typed up and nice detailed and lengthy response and when I hit "reply" POOF! My computer lost its marbles. Totally awesome. So for now...

I guess I really need to preempt my posts with the fact that my front end was upgraded by the PO. At least until I switch it back, which I plan to do. If I'm gonna run air-cooled then I don't want any questions on that! It is in fact a 1980 California model. All my smog woes are documented over in the troubleshooting/diagnostic forum. viewtopic.php?f=42&t=12253

For the moment, I'll just throw a big thanks for all the information and suggestions and move along to the current news at hand. I literally just got off the phone with Kline Volkswagen repair in El Cajon. I dropped my heads off there on Saturday. When I dropped them off he suspected one of them was cracked but would know for sure until he cleaned them up. Well I got the news today that they are both cracked. So now I need new heads. My dilemma now is 1. do I just buy new heads and slap them on and go with it? or 2. Seems how after buying new heads on top of the parts I've already purchased and waiting to use will put me near or over the $1200 mark, should I just through (throw-ed) down for a complete rebuilt long block? Will there be any issues putting new heads on my old block?


I may be wrong but I would think that the oil in the cylinders "might" be due the fact that the engine was tilted every which way, with oil that I forgot to drain still in it, while I was trying to wrestle it off my tranny jack and onto the engine stand. I made a big mess. I won't mention how I accomplished this task as it would most likely only be kosher in the back hills of southern Georgia. I haven't done a good inspection on the cylinders as of yet so I cant report any more or less scuffing on any one cylinder. When I originally did a compression check during my smog saga, cylinder #1 was slightly lower than the rest. About 10-15 PSI. When I added a little oil and did a wet test, it brought the reading up a bit.

I did have head gaskets/sealing rings on when the heads were removed.

As far as my daughter goes, I have discussed her uber rare chromosome deletion with Colin a bit. She is extra vulnerable to anything that normal people can usually tolerate without issue. She started showing signs of a cold about half way through our trip. We didn't think too much of it as she had been sick before and handled it fine. On New Years Eve she was having a rough time. Lots of congestion and coughing terribly. At night, she sleeps while on oxygen and an oxygen saturation monitor. Mostly due to severe sleep apnea but also because her pulmonary system is very complicated among other issues. We had started monitoring during the day at that point and she was consistently sating in the upper 80's% and de-sating regularly into the low 70's%. For her, normal is 93-97%. Most people are 100% all the time. On New Years Day we discussed our options. We were in Zion, Utah and still had a couple days left with plans to hike tons and sight see. My wife suggested that she stay at the cabin with her and that I could go out with our older daughter. After talking it over we decided to cut our losses and call it a vacation. So we hit the road for the long drive back to San Diego. My wife had already called and had an appointment set up at the Dr's the next day. Once she got there, they did a couple of breathing treatments to try to clear her out a bit. Instead she went into respiratory distress and they immediately took her to the ER by ambulance. Within the next 5 hours she had gone from the ER to the pulmonary floor and to the PICU where she was intubated and sedated. Absolutely some the of the scariest moments of our lives. She also coded (code blue) 3 times over the next week. It was VERY touchy for a while. She was intubated/sedated for 16 days. Finally got out of the ICU after 35 days and on day 39 was released and we took her home. The diagnosis ended up being the Rhino virus (cold) and mycoplasma pneumonia (walking pneumonia). The interesting thing there is that walking pneumonia has an incubation period of 20-30 days. Which means she picked that up BEFORE we even left on our 2 week trip!!

[bosco53]

More questions:

Should I have my injectors rebuilt? Or maybe just check that they're functioning properly?

Also, bus depot sells rebuilt heads for $219. Is that a reasonable option? More than just the price?

[cegammel]

I have one of those heads on my 80 vanagon. I had a couple of issues with it on install, but it has been fine for about 5000 miles...The heads are actually rebuilt by AVP, if that helps any.

[bosco53]

I have one of those heads on my 80 vanagon. I had a couple of issues with it on install, but it has been fine for about 5000 miles...The heads are actually rebuilt by AVP, if that helps any.

That does lend a hand. Thanks. What issues did you have installing?

[Amskeptic]

heads are both cracked.
I need new heads.

DEMAND TO KEEP THEM. I would like to see them.

1. do I just buy new heads and slap them on and go with it?

2.should I just throw down for a complete rebuilt long block?
Will there be any issues putting new heads on my old block?

"Again," declared the petulant scolding little bald professor, " We don't know the whys and wherefores of your engine's failure. You CANNOT just slap them on and go with it. What happened? Do you have damaged cylinder walls? Have you checked the intake camshaft lobes after removing a lifter so you can see the wear pattern? Check the lifter bottoms too. Are they pitted or flat or concave? And, *!@#, let me know if #2 has scoring on its walls in excess of the others. Can a fingernail catch any stripes going up and down the cylinder wall. Answer my questions before you walk over them and blithely continue asking yours."

I may be wrong but I would think that the oil in the cylinders "might" be due the fact that the engine was tilted every which way, with oil that I forgot to drain still in it, while I was trying to wrestle it off my tranny jack and onto the engine stand.

If oil is kept out of the combustion chamber with a piston moving back and forth 50 times a second, tilting the engine on the jack ain't gonna do squat. I think you might need a professional assessment?

I did have head gaskets/sealing rings on when the heads were removed.

Very good evidence that this engine might be close to original and not mangled by POs.

As far as my daughter coded 3 times over the week.
out of the ICU after 35 days
Rhino virus and mycoplasma pneumonia. picked up BEFORE we even left on our 2 week trip!!

Man, that is hair-raising. Is her immune system going to get stronger over time?
Colin

[cegammel]

AVP insisted that the valves should be set to no more than one turn past contact, and the Temp II sender hole was stripped. The valve adjustment guidelines threw me for a loop...I called to ask, and couldn't get a real answer. With Colin here, we adjusted them to 1.5 turns. The lifters are noisy if the van hasn't run in a couple of days, but quiet down in a couple of minutes. I may go back to 1 turn next time I'm in there to see what happens.

Oh...I forgot about this detail...They also "lost" an entire shipping truck of heads...so I actually had to order twice. It took 6 weeks to finally get the head. No fault of theirs, but annoying all the same.

[SlowLane]

My personal experiece with AVP:

After my first engine dropped a valve seat (blocked open the #3 exhaust, which then dinged the piston), I ordered and installed an AVP rebuilt longblock. Getting that shipped across the border to Canada was an adventure in itself. With exchange rate and shipping, it ended up costing me about $3000 CDN. I opted to eat the core charge and keep my old engine because the cost of shipping back the core was about the same as the core charge.

~24,000 km later, the AVP engine was making odd clicking noises. Out it came for a diagnostic disassembly. Yes, another dropped valve seat, this time on #1 cylinder. Fortunately, the seat had remained in its pocket and hadn't yet wedged itself cockeyed in the head, but still, the engine wasn't usable in that condition.

I decided to continue disassembling the AVP engine because, given the apparent lack of assembly and parts quality I had seen just getting the heads off, I wasn't feeling too confident about the rest of the engine.

Long story short: there's a good reason AVP's prices are so attractive. They are definitely a budget rebuilder. The most disturbing thing I found in my disassembly was a piece of gravel, yes, a tiny little rock about 1.5 mm in diameter, inside one of the rocker arm oil passages. There is absolutely no way that could have migrated there through the oil pump, filter, engine galleries, valve lifter and pushrod, so it had to have been in there when the rocker arm was assembled. Just where the heck did they pull that rocker arm from?

Now, if I were to compare what I found with some of the horror stories I've read about GEX engines, I'd say that AVP is still several cuts above GEX, but still, caveat emptor.

PS. Very glad your daughter pulled through.
PPS. I'd say keep the front end as it is. Be different. Enjoy the perplexed looks of Vanagonistas everywhere. Concoct a tale of a one-off prototype built as a concept vehicle way back in 1980.