Community engine

[Kubelwagen]

sure, a top of the line rebuild might come close or surpass the original numbers, but roughly what percentage of bus motors on the road today can still withstand those sustained speeds/rpm's - without heating themselves to the point of permanent damage?

Life is far easier in the present for these engines ... no more mandated lean mixtures.
BUT replacement parts can be dicey. My Volkswagen dealer supplied parts allowed me to get several 100,000 mile rebuilds in a row ... only in the 21st Century did I get mowed down by morons in machine shops twice in a row.

I don't even think about getting on it any more, it is clear that the good parts are getting hard to come by, and I am going to try to make that BobD engine break some kind of record for the longest non-rebuilt original engine in history or sumpin'. I do wish we owners would demand the best instead of the cheapest ...
Colin

Pulled this from the "contemplating (re)build" thread and also building from some of the discussion on "who makes a decent early bay longblock". I think there would be utility for the collective if the wise-ones-among-us were to launch a Gedankenexperiment to virtually build the state-of-the-art 21st century type 4 engine(s).

What I mean is- could we over the course of a few months pull together the best parts, vendors, etc. for a "IAC approved" (re)build? I think the information is already out there from the various build threads. But, it would be a big help for those (like me) who are mere plebes to have gathered together. All the better if there are those from within the forum-community who can provide some of the needed services.

Our beloved rides aren't getting any younger and the ratio of good to bad parts is not moving in our favor.

Forgive me if this seems hopelessly naive.

Mike

[ruckman101]

Not naive, idealistic, maybe. So many opinions. I like the idea, of course I like it better re: type 1 engines.


neal

[hambone]

I did that with my engine, tried to make the perfect stock 1600 type1. It drove me to madness.
I'd be happy to help. If I get to keep the engine afterwards. MAN what a catch.

[Kubelwagen]

Yeah, I think it would, could, should lead to type 1 engines too.

I'm "just" thinking a conceptual engine. What would be the current best way to go (or best options), best techniques, etc. I know various tech sites do this sort of things for computers - this is the case, motherboard, processor, etc. for the best bang for your buck gaming machine, etc.

[Gypsie]

I like the concept and this could lead to some interesting discussions. I think a catchy thread title that could go across model lines...Something like "Uber type IV engine concept" "....Uber type I concept engine...)) or something.

I like the idea of compiling some overall engine building/systems analysis. I can see the discussions honing in on some great advice that could then be gathered at the top of the thread.

I can see it being kind of a part sourcing thread with reference to other processes.

Because the site itself is chock full o' stuff (from technical to experiential) perhaps it could focus on that and folk could link other threads with the other information.

This could go sideways what with all the opinions with vested experiences. I know that my own particular brand of wrenchin' can catch in some craws. It goes without saying that heels easily get dug in when it comes to an individual's passion. But I can honestly say that I have faith in this community to bring their best game to the table, will share what they know and believe and I will be the better for having participated.
Just threshing the grain here...

[ruckman101]

I'm still a hard core advocate for Bob Hoover's recommendation of a drive train as a unit balance. Balanced connected I would assume, flywheel, connecting rods, pistons, and pulley to the crankshaft. Every micro gram of that assembly as a unit that is out of balance robs longevity, efficiency, cooling and power.

Some scoff at the idea. So that would be my first "must do" for a rebuild regardless of the engine type.

But now that Dan Hall's is gone, I don't know where to go for such a service. They did my school engine recently demised, and the engine freshly fired in Gretchen Ghia. No shaking.


neal

[hambone]

Hall is back, different name though. I think Paige posted something on the subject.
True, a perfect engine would be different for each of us. An educated consumer is always the best thing. No free lunch either.

[ruckman101]

Good to know. Hopefully the same quality and integrity they had been known for before.


neal

[Gypsie]

Scientifically the concept of balance has merit. Perfection of balance can likely only be attempted with a fully assembled core, so I agree.

Next best for balance... careful consideration and attention to component specs you can control. I got my rods and pistons to within a .2 g variance with grinding and consideration of rod and piston variables. I did not get a dynamic balance. Time will tell if this will do.

Definitely consider any mixing of the main friction parts (ie cam and lifters). Don't just replace one part. if you go new, go new for both.

[Mike Boell]

Good to know. Hopefully the same quality and integrity they had been known for before.


neal

Neal,
I believe the guy that worked for Dan Hall and did your work is the guy who bought and is running the shop.
Mike

[ruckman101]

Thanks Mike. I am reassured, as at some point I will again be in the market for some machine shop work.

All in all it's a fickle topic what with all the varied opinions out there. For instance, how many align bores is acceptable? Many wouldn't have run the case of Bertha Bus's engine because of their opinion that it was an align bore too far. As it was, I was told it was the last for that case.

Or even the sense of using a used case freshly align bored, the argument being that past abuses and time take a toll and the metal becomes heat fatigued and brittle.

Of course, this is only a concern for the type 1 folks I've heard, as the type 4 engine cases are much more robust and have a reputation of being "bulletproof".

Perfection is an unattainable ideal, a numeric impossibility. The reality is always a compromise away from perfection. For instance, I have the makings for another build, but am missing a cylinder. Do I scare up a used cylinder? Or shy away from the entire set and invest in a new set?


neal

[Amskeptic]

I want to go in the opposite direction for my experiment.

Get every crap Chinese part possible. Talk to them earnestly and assemble with care. Hit the road. Find out what they are actually good for.

Then build a monster of a used German part junkyard collage. See how it does . . .
Colin

[airkooledchris]

and the final test is to see what you can build yourself from NOS German parts, and compare to the one VW assembled 34 years ago.....


I wish we could do a 'dyno day' with a bunch of stock and old rebuild setups to see where these are all running. Everyone shoots for a certain CHT for the health of their engine, but worn out parts and poorly rebuilt engines are going to have to work harder than a low mileage or perfectly built setup (theoretically.)

It would be cool to know what sort of HP and Torque everyone is running, since most every Dyno setup on a bus is typically only done on the best of the best, or by Jake on some totally worn out POS just to show how bad it is. There's no 'real world' number to compare to...

[hambone]

If "perfection" and "quality" can't even be clearly defined, then how can one build it? Each part is a 1-off despite it's identical manufacture to it's sisters.
But a spade is a spade. You don't need to build an engine chock full of shoddy parts to see the result. As we all know, some Chinese parts work well for many years, others break right out of the box. Anything, not just VW. I'm not sure I see the glory of building an intentional piece of crap. Building a decent engine on a low budget has it's charms though, but how the hell could you TRUST it across the country?
As far as building a running engine from junkyard parts, "builders" have been scamming this way for years. Yeah they run ok for a few thousand miles then shake or leak themselves to death. We've all seen it. Using good used parts, carefully selected and inspected is another matter, then you're using good parts after all.

Quality is nothing but the infused intent of the builder coupled with just plain luck. We can't see the atoms dance; there is no telling what secrets lurk.

[DjEep]

I think the best way to go is stock, stock, stock. German crank, German cam, German rods, Brazilian pistons, good OG or Mexican case, balanced plate to pulley, piston to piston. I've driven hundreds of Volks, and any performance gains or price reductions I've seen from aftermarket crap pale in comparison to the losses in feel, overall driveability and reliability.

Any schmo can build a reliable Type1, as long as they can source decent machine work on decent stock parts. Reground this or polished that is better than shiny Chinese poop.