1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Beetle, Karmann Ghia, Thing.

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Amskeptic
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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:51 am

cegammel wrote:Bentley and Chiltons....both made the adjustment sound like the setting should be close to the 2.5. At any rate, I still have a bit of inconsistency. The idle seems to search periodically.
Hello.
My schedule had plumbing problems too. I will be available at the end of October or middle of November.
BUT - the only way I can serve you with the dependability and reliability that Itinerant Air-Cooled is famous for, is if you PM me with your List Of Concerns and available dates.

Meanwhile, explicate "idle seems to search periodically". Temp? Run time? RPM? Degree of Oscillation?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by cegammel » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:08 am

I think I got it... Spent 4 hours last night, and then nailed it in 6 minutes this morning. "Searching" here means "stumbling;" the idle would occasionally drop so low as to barely run, at other times running like a brand new machine. The stumbling did not seem to be temperature related. I have not CHT sensor on this engine, so I'm in the dark as to temps. We shall see on the ride home if my latest adjustment did anything.

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by cegammel » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:37 pm

Took the long way home; issue seems resolved, for now at least.
Here's the run down from the top:
Sunday, drove to church, about 3 miles. Came out, start car, and it runs like total crap. Seems to be missing badly, but smooths out with some acceleration. While kneeling behind the car, the exhaust blew specks of black char all over my leg...
Piddled around with plug wires, then just drove it. With accelerator applied car ran great home, but definitely no good at idle. Drove for a couple of days to work, same thing, so decided on a quick tune up. Pulled plugs, all were black and sooty. Coupled with the exhaust soot, I determined rich burn...
So, cleaned and regapped plugs ro .024, reset points to 44°, adjusted timing to 7.5, then started on carb. At 3 turns of the volume screw, no dice on idle. Finally got it to run at 4.5 turns, then adjusted from there to a very nice smooth idle for today's ride home.

I still cannot figure out how to get a compression tester in there...

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:40 pm

cegammel wrote: I still cannot figure out how to get a compression tester in there...
Get a semi-vintage small-diameter-hose tester where the hose is hard-attached to the gauge. Lube gauge threads with dipstick oil at each cylinder position.
Then you can apply twist to the gauge head while you expertly guide the hose at a slightly deeper angle than you think to the spark plug well. Rotate ccw as you search for the elusive click that tells you the tester threads just jumped. Here you reverse direction and lightly start your threading process down to only a rubbery snuggish.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by cegammel » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:22 pm

Here we go again...

Symptoms include stumbling upon acceleration in all gears at all engine temps, normally not resulting in a full on engine off stall, but bucking and all but. This began immediately after getting gas at a questionable station. So, I jumped at that conclusion, added HEET and a few gallons from another station. Issue continued. So, I changed fuel filters. Also no change. There is gas in the carb when the issue occurs, so I lean to either ignition or surfeit of fuel. Ignition seems good, though my spark seems a little weak. So new $20 coil goes on...no dice.

Now, I get to add a resurgence of my old no start condition as well...I thought I licked it by jumping the ignition at the fuse block and removing the seatbelt warning relay. The no start is intermittent, and the bug fires up immediately when roll started. I have a spare starter, but the intermittency leads me away from the starter.

Any thoughts are as always appreciated!

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:19 pm

cegammel wrote:Here we go again...

Symptoms include stumbling upon acceleration in all gears at all engine temps, normally not resulting in a full on engine off stall, but bucking and all but. This began immediately after getting gas at a questionable station. So, I jumped at that conclusion, added HEET and a few gallons from another station. Issue continued. So, I changed fuel filters. Also no change. There is gas in the carb when the issue occurs, so I lean to either ignition or surfeit of fuel. Ignition seems good, though my spark seems a little weak. So new $20 coil goes on...no dice.

Now, I get to add a resurgence of my old no start condition as well...I thought I licked it by jumping the ignition at the fuse block and removing the seatbelt warning relay. The no start is intermittent, and the bug fires up immediately when roll started. I have a spare starter, but the intermittency leads me away from the starter.

Any thoughts are as always appreciated!
It appears to be electrical. If engine starts readily when jumped, but is a pill on the starter, we can surmise that you are getting a voltage drop during cranking.

Start investigation with the basics. If you have a "modular" battery cable post that pinches the wire strands with those two 11mm bolts, tear it apart, separate the strands, clean to a shine, twist together, slather with dielectric grease, tighten securely, do the other post, do the ground and the starter motor, charge the battery overnight at 2 amps, etc . . .
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by cegammel » Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:46 pm

Been camping all week in the well-behaved Vanagon...

Now, back to this Beetle... the battery cables are brand spanking new, not the bolt together ones. I cleaned them anyway...and had the battery tested...no dice. When I add my BIG CHARGER, she fires right up.
So, I put it on a 2 amp trickle, and now she starts like a champ. My voltage at the battery when the car is running is 13.5 ish, so the alternator is doing something.
So, could my switch be the culprit for both problems?

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by asiab3 » Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:57 pm

cegammel wrote: Now, back to this Beetle... the battery cables are brand spanking new, not the bolt together ones. I cleaned them anyway...and had the battery tested...no dice. When I add my BIG CHARGER, she fires right up.
So, I put it on a 2 amp trickle, and now she starts like a champ. My voltage at the battery when the car is running is 13.5 ish, so the alternator is doing something.
So, could my switch be the culprit for both problems?
Hmm, when I test running alternators I usually expect to see in the ballpark of 14.6 volts. Where are you measuring, and are the contacts clean?
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by cegammel » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:45 pm

I am measuring the battery posts with the engine running. I cleaned the contacts, but my wiring is definitely suspect.

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:07 am

cegammel wrote:I am measuring the battery posts with the engine running. I cleaned the contacts, but my wiring is definitely suspect.
I personally would assume that the car is not being driven enough to keep the battery fully charged. This is a classic issue for old Volkswagens and it is part of why people have learned that VWs "like to be driven". If you trickle charge the battery overnight and get a winning start in the morning, disconnect the battery if you are going to let the car sit for a week. Let us know if the next start is a winner.

We have determined from the above good start-with-charger that your car needs some sprucing up as far as electrical efficiency during starting. Yes, optimize all hot side wiring from battery to starter to fuse box to ignition switch to coil, the whole daisy chain . . . but also optimize grounds from negative post of battery to floorpan to transaxle strap to case to distributor ground strap.

Is your battery actually fresh? Is starter a nice quick-rotater? Can you give us:

a) turn on ignition/headlamps for one minute - read voltage at battery just after you shut them off
b) coil voltage during cranking
c) battery voltage at 2,500 rpm
?
Colin
(p.s. sooty plugs are bad cold starters, try to get this engine to run lean enough to keep plugs clean, and drive it long enough to thoroughly heat up the engine)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by cegammel » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:52 pm

I was hoping my two issues would be related...My van had the same starting issue until I put in an on board charger and started plugging up at night. The stumbling has me more concerned. I suppose I shall return to the drawing board and deal one problem at a time.
If the distributor were dying...how would I know?

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:04 pm

cegammel wrote:I was hoping my two issues would be related...My van had the same starting issue until I put in an on board charger and started plugging up at night. The stumbling has me more concerned. I suppose I shall return to the drawing board and deal one problem at a time.
If the distributor were dying...how would I know?
Distributors don't die. You set the points, check the dwell, check the timing from idle to 4,000 rpm. If it passes, it's good. The only item near the distributor that acts like a black box poltergeist is the condensor. Got spare? Exchange it. If symptoms are gone, you throw out the old one. If the symptoms remain, you scrawl "spare condensor - basketcasebeetle" on the box and keep it.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by cegammel » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:51 pm

I have not had time to do any real diagnostics...but I am still leaning towards wiring in the dash or switch for the no start condition, since the car starts easily and immediately with the remote switch. It has been starting from the key this week as well, though with an occasional time lapse when the key gets to the start position.

As for my running issue, it has been better...for some reason...I fiddled with the carb a little, and swapped out the fuel inlet valve, but nothing else. Today, when leaving work, it belched out a huge cloud of grey smoke, and then blew out soot...this concerns me greatly. Car has not smoked at all before...and it ran great home.

Also...my brake pedal requires a pump to get up to height...

So. Many. Issues. So. Little. Time.

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by cegammel » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:13 pm

Good God, y'all. What is it good for?

Car stranded me three blocks from home. Sputtered, no vroom, died, then no start, no click, no nothing. So, walked home, got my remote start button, car started up, then ran really crappily home.

I yanked the switch and the distributor out. The switch was cracked, so replaced it, cleaning everything in the vicinity. Then, I did a minor disassembly on the distributor, found a missing spring clip, and replaced the condensor. Car runs great...except that it wouldn't start today... A quick roll start and it ran great home. This weekend, then, I am back to the basics. The new switch feels much better. The old one sort of smushed into position, this one clicks. I was also able to put the steering wheel on straight...

I am quite certain the battery is good. I think the alternator is good. I have full voltage during no start at the starter switch spade wire. I have jumped the danged seatbelt relay. The issue is intermittent. I soaked and cleaned all grounds that I could find...there are probably some in the dash that I have not touched yet. So,I have a spare starter, and I need to reinstall the heater ducts this weekend anyway... I get the feeling that my no start is something really stupid simple.

In other news, I still have a water leak...so still no new interior. Also, I have to have reliable running before I drop any more money in this beast.

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Re: 1974 Super beetle, basket case...

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:46 am

cegammel wrote:Good God, y'all. What is it good for?

The issue is intermittent. I get the feeling that my no start is something really stupid simple.
Wiring. If components are good, then you need to look and feel through the wiring. A classic spot is the green wire at the distributor, it frays. All spade connectors, if you have broken strands at the clamp portion, cut back and install new spade. Check wiring through holes around corners wherever a missing grommet may be and my recent favorite, rusted ground spades *after being cleaned* that still refuse to pass electricity because its corresponding spade connector has a layer of crusty oxidation/corrosion where it contacts your shiny clean spade.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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