Gibson Raided- who's next to be Gestapo'd by your friendly

[airkooledchris]

isn't the real problem that these threads have been getting thrown into discussions, that in all reality, are beyond the original subject manner?

maybe someone can start a new thread specifically about libertarian idea's and then the debate held within will actually relate to the topic of the thread, rather than turning every other thread into a more wide reaching global debate on personal freedom's.

then again those threads that actually ARE specific to those idea's and debates may not get the volume of traffic, so it's up to the person/s who want these debates to continue - are you in it for the real nature of the discussion or is it the goal to shove these things in everyone's faces in every possible thread you can? knowingly or not, the latter is what has been happening (again) here and it creates this super negative environment where your supposed to just let it slide and ignore it without reacting personally to it or just fuck off and stop reading the free speech area's again.

I don't personally mind the end/pointless bickering about politics, except when the stench of it starts putrefying every barely-related topic that comes along.

[Velokid1]

I agree with all that. It really is akin to the way Turk turned every thread into a global warming argument.

But do you see the difference between what you just wrote and calling someone a loser cocksmoker piece of shit?

[steve74baywin]

This thread here is probably a real good place for my "Libertarian" ideals. In other words, this thread isn't a good example or comparison to the example of turning every debate into a global warming one. This one is very appropriate for my ideals. And my political philosophy isn't just one topic, it is a philosophy and should belong in any real true debate about politics in this country. It is not "one issue" like global warming.
I'm sorry, but if I feel an issue is due to that lack of or the solution is my limited gov belief's I should be able to say so. Does someone on the left or right want to be told when it isn't a topic for the their side?
I recall giving advise to someone on here about waiting a few post before jumping back into a thread, or waiting a day even, I mentioned this as a way to keep people from doing what was done here this time. I reflected back on the day or two I posted in this thread, there seemed to not be too much going on that day and one or two people were replying to my comments, they were countering what I said. They questioned something I said and I replied back. It would have appeared to me that myself and two others were enjoying our discussion. If you look closely you will probably see that. Then one person got upset, took something as an insult, and then another person came in like he saw a wounded animal and was going to go in for the kill.
Seriously, it looks to me like one or two people willingly was asking or countering what I said, they quoted what I said and had question marks at the end of their sentences, I replied to what they said.
I could say the same things.
In no particular order, we have
Randy in Maine: very polite most of the time, but he is pro whatever this system does, almost always. Maybe he should get his own pro gov forum.
Neal: corporations are very bad, but the limited gov crowd is bad too, they enable the corporations. How many times do I get that from him. I thank him for engaging in the conversation.
Russel, he varies a bit, but questions much of what I say and keeps telling me what he thinks is needed in this system. God bless him
Lanval, he attempts to prove me wrong, and prove that I know very little about history, I disagree and we sometimes discuss, but I get almost the say old stuff from him. Give him his own forum too.
Anyways, point being, if I was some of you all, I'd already would have been crying years ago.

[Amskeptic]

is anybody getting nostalgic for GWB?

No.
Colin

[RSorak 71Westy]

Back to topic> the wood itself was is NOT endangered, but it is illegal if it left India in unfinished form. The justice dept has suggested to Gibson in writing that moving the labor part of building their instruments out of the country would solve the whole problem.

[deschutestrout]

Back to topic> the wood itself was is NOT endangered, but it is illegal if it left India in unfinished form. The justice dept has suggested to Gibson in writing that moving the labor part of building their instruments out of the country would solve the whole problem.

In other words...outsource MORE jobs. And I could no longer buy a US made Gibson. Crazy times we live in.

[hambone]

A 2k + a pop I can't afford one anyway. Luxury goods for Those Better than the Rest of Us. Back to the shoe-box and rubber bands.

[deschutestrout]

Boy howdy Hammy did you miss my point I can't afford one either.

[hambone]

Didn't miss it, made a point of my own. Yeah you're rich.

[static]

Back to topic> the wood itself was is NOT endangered, but it is illegal if it left India in unfinished form. The justice dept has suggested to Gibson in writing that moving the labor part of building their instruments out of the country would solve the whole problem.

Not necessarily so. Think: illegal logging, illegal traffiking. Organized crime loves precious hardwoods as much as they love to traffic drugs, village girls and bear gall.
This happens here (Stateside) as well. Cross slightly over the marked boundary, fell untagged trees (Spruce are nice!), pull them back out and then try to cover up the scarring. In one instance which occurred several years ago, the graders at the mill blew the whistle.

I personally watched very suspicious teak logs being moved by "bamboo train" in Cambodia. How will they get it out (and, in return, sell it for "big" money)? They will fraudulently label it. That is what has been indicted here. "As for last week's raid, the government said it had evidence that Indian ebony was "fraudulently" labeled in an attempt to evade an Indian ban on exports of unfinished wood."

Anyway, this is a long-established policy and is really merely one more bit of feigned outrage from folks that have nothing but hate for the Federal Government. Look how even the (very conservative) WSJ has not done any digging in the story beyond the first story. This story has legs because the wacky right-wing bloggers are propping it up. A man with the title "Wood Engineer", one who has tangled with the Feds before over this issue, is not ignorant of the law.

A Federal judge issued the search warrant, and (even though he was appointed by Clinton) judges are not exactly known to be liberal. This is not the first time that Gibson has tangled with this issue and the previous charges have not even been settled yet but the CEO is being quite the loudmouth. We are hearing his bitching, but the investigation is not over.

This is nothing more than a hobby-horse for the "We don't want the Feds telling us what to do" folk. The "more jobs going overseas" bullshit is a red herring.

[Velokid1]

Exactly right static.

[static]

I hesitate posting this article at all, but this issue deserves a followup. All previous articles (that I were able to find) were all just rehashed quotes and rumors from Henry Juszkiewicz with an obvious ax to grind. I do not consider the article linked below to be a balanced source, either. However, it does show (to me, anyway) an underlying reason (money!) and is worthy of perusal. It won't make any tin-hat Tampans shut the fuck up about it, nor do I expect as much. After all, there is a sparkle pony at the end of the rainbow, if only, if only...

Link->>How Gibson Guitars made illegal logging a conservative cause célèbre<--Link

This links to part one of a long, four-part article. If you haven't the time to read all of it, please at least read this snippet that I chopped from part four:

"The reason: American forest products growers, companies, and workers were being asked to compete with foreign operators who employ slave and child labor, and log in national parks and other areas without permission and without paying taxes -- even companies that funded Taliban attacks on American soldiers. Competition from illegal imports costs the American forest products industry around $1 billion per year, representing thousands of lost jobs, according to a study by the American Forest & Paper Association.

Mark Barford, executive director of the Memphis-based National Hardwood Lumber Association put it succinctly: "We need the protection of the Lacey Act. We need a fair playing field. Our small, little companies cannot compete with artificially low prices from wood that comes in illegally ... This is our Jobs Act."

The economic benefit of the Lacey Act is why such an unusually wide array of groups support it: the Hardwood Federation (representing more than 13,000 companies across the U.S.), the American Forest & Paper Association, the United Steelworkers (who represent 100,000 pulp and paper workers), Lowe's Home Improvement, Teamsters International, National Hardwood Lumber Association, International Paper, and hundreds of small and large companies alike, as well as a wide array of environmental groups.

"The [United Steelworkers] has seen true devastation among our members as multiple plants have closed or reduced production, in large part because of imports from nations where illegal logging is a large part of the timber supply," said Holly Hart, the group's Legislative Director, told the Chestertown (Ind.) Tribune.

Nonetheless, eager to jump on the latest Tea Party cause and bolstered by Boehner's speech, some Republicans have been kicking around the idea of repealing or altering the Lacey Act to carve out exemptions for the guitar industry or other users of wood.

But Gibson is an outlier in its own industry. Other major guitar manufacturers have embraced Lacey Act compliance -- and have found affordable, legal, sustainable, and super high quality hardwoods for their instruments."

Editors' Note -- full disclosure: Glenn Hurowitz is currently doing communications work for the Environmental Investigation Agency, a nonprofit advocacy organization that is campaigning to protect the Lacey Act from corporate, Tea Party, and Republican attacks. He wrote these articles as a senior fellow at the Center for International Policy, a nonprofit that also works to stop illegal logging.

We didn't post this information when this article was first published, and we should have. We've appended it as of Sept. 28, 2011.

[steve74baywin]

The single surest biggest thing I can take away from that article is this.
Keep and get the government out of it. It just goes to show what you will get when you have given the monopoly on the right to use force to a thing called the government, and you let them use force to bring about desires, wishes and changes, instead of just protecting individual rights. You then end up getting a power struggle and battle between little people, big corporations, even bigger corporations and politicians all claiming what is best and why. A giant circle jerk, as to be expected from a big government.

[Velokid1]

Really? Because the single biggest thing I take from this article is that Gibson fucking sucks.

[steve74baywin]

Really? Because the single biggest thing I take from this article is that Gibson fucking sucks.

A few things that aided in my thoughts below, taking from the article.

First how making it illegal caused a thriving black market. The number one formula for giving something power, make it illegal.


Using the gov

stew of foreign money, conservative activists, and an increasingly incautious GOP have used an all American icon -- Gibson Guitars -- to paint a regulation born with broad, bipartisan support under a Republican president as the jackboot of Big Government, slamming down on American businesses.

Then

"caused the United States to cut off aid to the country (including conservation aid). In the aftermath of the coup, Chinese logging gangs pillaged Madagascar's national parks, focusing on high-value export species like ebony."

And the World Bank speaks up, the bank that typically gets third world countries in debt to the same system we are stuck in.

The situation in Madagascar is typical: Globally, illegal logging costs developing nations close to $10 billion annually in lost assets and revenues, according to the World Bank. For these reasons, forest nations have begged developed countries to enforce their own laws against trade in illegally logged goods.

more gov intervention

the Lacey Act, as well as the United States' extremely modest level of aid for conservation in foreign countries, and environmental trade policies -- all programs that had traditionally had very strong bipartisan support.

and more gov

has ever advocated barging in to someone's business and confiscating his property. It's the far left environmental movement that is the real danger here, backed by the deep pockets of George Soros and others, and empowered by an Obama administration that will never solve the country's jobs crisis if it continues harassing American companies this way. At the very least, it is time to examine this nation's problem with overcriminalization -- starting with the Lacey Act itself.

Big government trying to dictate too many matters around the world.
This country, us, the people, are borrowing and going in debt to enforce regulations around the globe on trees, and investigating companies here, and spending money raiding then for things like this. While we are in debt and the countries credit card is maxed out, we are doing these things