what has trump done right?

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TrollFromDownBelow
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what has trump done right?

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Thu May 24, 2018 7:49 pm

I've stated this many times before ... NOT A TRUMP SUPPORTER. But, no one can be completely 100% wrong...let's face it - law of averages say that he will get something right ... even if by not doing anything (no decision is a decision).

I would like to see this NOT devolve into "how can you think that!?" It would be interesting to see other peoples opinion of what they think he has done right without fear of flaming or retribution.

Folks, this is a challenge for you to see things in a different light...if nothing else (or more importantly) it will help you hone your debating/discussion skills..(which I fear is becoming a lost art as people continue to congregate with folks of like minds, and this country increasingly becomes more polarized...)

I will go first.... would give him credit with challenging China on their trade policies, and up until a few days ago, would have given him credit with thawing relations with North Korea, but that has since gone south.

next...
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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by Amskeptic » Fri May 25, 2018 7:17 am

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 7:49 pm
I've stated this many times before ... NOT A TRUMP SUPPORTER. But, no one can be completely 100% wrong...let's face it - law of averages say that he will get something right ... even if by not doing anything (no decision is a decision).

I would like to see this NOT devolve into "how can you think that!?" It would be interesting to see other peoples opinion of what they think he has done right without fear of flaming or retribution.

Folks, this is a challenge for you to see things in a different light...if nothing else (or more importantly) it will help you hone your debating/discussion skills..(which I fear is becoming a lost art as people continue to congregate with folks of like minds, and this country increasingly becomes more polarized...)

I will go first.... would give him credit with challenging China on their trade policies, and up until a few days ago, would have given him credit with thawing relations with North Korea, but that has since gone south.

next...

You know that I have a dim view of people with flawed character. I have a dim view of people who lack all empathy. I have a dim view of people with great advantages, financial and otherwise, who are also of flawed character and absent empathy. I have an especially dim view of advantaged psychopathic narcissistic people who bear false witness. That said, I will not even "credit" Trump with challenging China on their trade policies after this latest snafu with China's smart phone company, ZTE.

While his impulsiveness has added a little oxygen to moribund international relations (normally a rather stultifying and dry topic), we have witless people celebrating his nihilism and anarchic tendencies without seemingly understanding that much of Trump's "decision-making" is actually an effort at distraction from some very real looming issues in his own life.

I know you were hoping for an analysis of the "upside" of Trump's presidency thus far, but I actually cannot point to a single thing that moves this country towards a more Perfect Union. Not one.

Seriously. Trump is entirely out of his league, and the danger to our Republic is real.
Colin
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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by cegammel » Fri May 25, 2018 8:27 pm

On the treatment of China...
Posing all tariff measures as punitive rather than formative is a serious flaw in the politicising of financial policy. The same actions, from a different point of view, would be constructive for promoting American industry. As it is, we have a trade war rather than promising stability to our work force. We are building a new economy on threats of vengeance rather than on promises of gain. It is backwards and negative. This is what we have consistently seen.

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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Fri May 25, 2018 9:09 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 7:17 am
I know you were hoping for an analysis of the "upside" of Trump's presidency thus far,
In this case Colin, WAY off base...this was my emphasis....
TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 7:49 pm

Folks, this is a challenge ....it will help you hone your debating/discussion skills..(which I fear is becoming a lost art as people continue to congregate with folks of like minds, and this country increasingly becomes more polarized...)
As much as Turk, and others (forgive me for not remembering their screen names) may have drove people nuts their opposing views made you think, and hopefully, maybe, "walk in their moccasins" a bit. As this country gets increasingly polarized, and with social media, it is very easy to consume information that agree with your political leanings, and never hear/understand an opposing viewpoint.

We NEED debate..we NEED to hear the viewpoints different than ours...and you know, that one thing that separates us from the animals (other than opposing thumbs) is empathy...empathy, understanding, and realizing we are all part of the same human race, I think is what makes a democracy work, but also, ensures it is a lasting. If we start thumping chests and insist we are right ... at all costs.....then what are the costs? One side takes control, whether by force, or other means and we devolve into a dictatorship.

I am (clumsily) trying to engage people mentally....as there is no Turk...and ALSO engage people to think with some empathy.

The scariest thing I read recently, is that in some political races, the Democratic party is taking a hard left on its stances/platforms. I'm thinking WTF...this current administration scares the HELL out of me...we need to REACH OUT to those folks that are in the middle, that are independents. Face it, trumps radical behavior makes the majority of people cringe....do you really think we are going to convince people to 'come to the other side" if we are being equally as radical?

So, with the absence of a Turk to stir things up, and with the added goal of thinking with an empathetic ear, I ask of you to think of one thing, no matter how small, that trump has done right. Think of it as an ice breaker the next time you talk to someone who is not an ardent trump supporter (lets face it...if they still stand up for him now, you will never convince them and are wasting your breath) but maybe voted for him for a 'change' you will make them feel better, and therefore will be more willing to listen to your viewpoints...
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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by Amskeptic » Sat May 26, 2018 8:39 am

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 9:09 pm

The scariest thing I read recently, is that in some political races, the Democratic party is taking a hard left on its stances/platforms. ....do you really think we are going to convince people to 'come to the other side" if we are being equally as radical?
So, as a debate/discussion clarification, please define "scariest thing". Define "hard left".
How did your choice of the word "scary" get tangled up with perhaps overly earnest people's desire for universal healthcare?
Colin
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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Sat May 26, 2018 4:03 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:39 am

So, as a debate/discussion clarification, please define "scariest thing". Define "hard left".
How did your choice of the word "scary" get tangled up with perhaps overly earnest people's desire for universal healthcare?
Colin
To answer your question...scariest thing to me, is that we lose the moderates/independents, or enough of them that trump gets reelected. The 'hard left' comment came from an article that I recently read, and unfortunately can't find right now.

However, you completely ignored the core of my last post. You won't get people to listen until you've listened to them, and at the least acknowledged their concerns.

If you acknowledge what I posted, and maybe I will listen to you with more attentiveness regarding universal/government healthcare. :flower:
1976 VW Bus aka tripod
FI ...not leaky, and not so noisy...and she runs awesome!
hambone wrote: There are those out there with no other aim but to bunch panties. It's like arguing with a pretzel.
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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by Amskeptic » Sat May 26, 2018 7:12 pm

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 4:03 pm
Amskeptic wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:39 am

So, as a debate/discussion clarification, please define "scariest thing". Define "hard left".
How did your choice of the word "scary" get tangled up with perhaps overly earnest people's desire for universal healthcare?
Colin
To answer your question...scariest thing to me, is that we lose the moderates/independents, or enough of them that trump gets reelected. The 'hard left' comment came from an article that I recently read, and unfortunately can't find right now.

However, you completely ignored the core of my last post. You won't get people to listen until you've listened to them, and at the least acknowledged their concerns.

If you acknowledge what I posted, and maybe I will listen to you with more attentiveness regarding universal/government healthcare. :flower:

I am getting confused quickly here.
I read, in this post here called "what has trump done right?":
"It would be interesting to see other peoples opinion of what they think he has done right"
I wrote in response:
"I know you were hoping for an analysis of the "upside" of Trump's presidency thus far,"
You responded:
"In this case Colin, WAY off base...this was my emphasis...."

So then I thought you were trying to get to the nuts and bolts of debate/discussion:
"I am (clumsily) trying to engage people mentally....as there is no Turk...and ALSO engage people to think with some empathy.
The scariest thing I read recently, is that in some political races, the Democratic party is taking a hard left on its stances/platforms."

And I sought to further that by asking for a definition of "scary" or "hard left", but you replied:
"However, you completely ignored the core of my last post. You won't get people to listen until you've listened to them, and at the least acknowledged their concerns.
If you acknowledge what I posted, and maybe I will listen to you with more attentiveness regarding universal/government healthcare."

I did acknowledge what you posted, but the goal posts are shifting around. What did you WANT me to answer? I didn't say a damn thing about universal healthcare, I wasn't asking for a response in regard to healthcare, I am seeking clarification of your definitions, not potshots about MY inability to comprehend or listen to whatever it is I am to listen to. Seeking clarification is a defining characteristic of listening!

I don't know what you are trying to ask or say or do, so I will butt out and let others work it out with you.
Colin
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Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by Amskeptic » Sat May 26, 2018 7:18 pm

cegammel wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 8:27 pm
On the treatment of China...
Posing all tariff measures as punitive rather than formative is a serious flaw in the politicising of financial policy.
True that. Punitive versus formative can apply to so many different disciplines.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Sat May 26, 2018 9:29 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 7:12 pm

I am getting confused quickly here.
Sorry about that....and you also sound frustrated, which I really apologize for.

On a small scale, my intent is to make the members of this forum better ambassadors of the anti - trump platform. So I am focusing on process...HOW do we become better ambassadors of an anti trump platform, not on the WHAT of the platform.

Below is my theory/thesis...

My paradigm...observations...etc.

- People have become very polarized, and tend to consume only media that supports their positions
- People don't communicate enough with people with differing view points and therefore don't understand where they are coming from (lack of empathy)
- There is less empathy now than there ever has been in the US, at least in my life time. I loved having political discussion in college; people focused on positions, logic, etc. It rarely started off ...."if you think this then you are an @ssh0le ....." There was a modicum of respect for the other person that they were a member of the human race. However, that now is rarely the case, and why I really don't discuss politics too much anymore.
- Democracy is good
- Democracy depends on open dialogue, as well as a degree of empathy to work
- People tend to listen to your message if you show some empathy and not call them names

Based on the above paradigm, I'm trying to:

- Have folks try to develop empathy towards people who voted for trump- or at least find some common ground with people who voted for him by finding one thing that has gone right. So the end goal here is not to point out what trump has done right, but rather to make people on this sight think in the mindset of a trump supporter, and find some common gruound which would show empathy.
- There is no Turk, and very few people of right leaning tendencies on this sight. Therefore, by posing the question 'what did talrump do right? I am (feebly) attempting to create a situation for people to think outside their norms to create empathy for trump supporters.

Desired outcome:

- We attempt to see things from other peoples perspective and by doing this we develop empathy,
- After we develop empathy, people are open to different view points (or at the least don't view you as an @sshole for yours)
- We secure independent voters, and trumps competitor wins in a landslide. :cheers:

If this still does not make sense, I will hang it up until you show up here in July. :flower:
1976 VW Bus aka tripod
FI ...not leaky, and not so noisy...and she runs awesome!
hambone wrote: There are those out there with no other aim but to bunch panties. It's like arguing with a pretzel.
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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by Amskeptic » Mon May 28, 2018 7:41 am

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 9:29 pm
Amskeptic wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 7:12 pm

I am getting confused quickly here.
Sorry about that....and you also sound frustrated, which I really apologize for.

On a small scale, my intent is to make the members of this forum better ambassadors of the anti - trump platform. So I am focusing on process...HOW do we become better ambassadors of an anti trump platform, not on the WHAT of the platform.

Below is my theory/thesis...

My paradigm...observations...etc.

- People have become very polarized, and tend to consume only media that supports their positions
- People don't communicate enough with people with differing view points and therefore don't understand where they are coming from (lack of empathy)
- There is less empathy now than there ever has been in the US, at least in my life time. I loved having political discussion in college; people focused on positions, logic, etc. It rarely started off ...."if you think this then you are an @ssh0le ....." There was a modicum of respect for the other person that they were a member of the human race. However, that now is rarely the case, and why I really don't discuss politics too much anymore.
- Democracy is good
- Democracy depends on open dialogue, as well as a degree of empathy to work
- People tend to listen to your message if you show some empathy and not call them names

Based on the above paradigm, I'm trying to:

- Have folks try to develop empathy towards people who voted for trump- or at least find some common ground with people who voted for him by finding one thing that has gone right. So the end goal here is not to point out what trump has done right, but rather to make people on this sight think in the mindset of a trump supporter, and find some common gruound which would show empathy.
- There is no Turk, and very few people of right leaning tendencies on this sight. Therefore, by posing the question 'what did talrump do right? I am (feebly) attempting to create a situation for people to think outside their norms to create empathy for trump supporters.

Desired outcome:

- We attempt to see things from other peoples perspective and by doing this we develop empathy,
- After we develop empathy, people are open to different view points (or at the least don't view you as an @sshole for yours)
- We secure independent voters, and trumps competitor wins in a landslide. :cheers:

If this still does not make sense, I will hang it up until you show up here in July. :flower:

You will get a big answer in about a day, here. I am busy busy busy in Los Alamos.

The polarization, the tribalism, the paralysis, I think is but a symptom of something larger than politics.
Colin :bounce:
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Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by JLT » Wed May 30, 2018 10:37 am

Things I am grateful for during this administration:

1. We have been shown the value of informed, unbiased, competent people in government agencies through their conspicuous absence in the current administration. In its emasculation of the State Department, the Environmental Protection Agency, and several other agencies, the administration has demonstrated how catastrophic such cutbacks can be for foreign and domestic policy. One can only hope that future administrations will take this to heart and be able to undo some of the damage, and to avoid such bad decisions in the future. Case in point: after Dubya's calamatous handling of Katrina, the Obama administration reformed FEMA and staffed it with people who actually knew something about disaster control, which made Hurricane Sandy and the Deepwater Horizon episodes a lot less devastating than they would have been otherwise.

2. We have been shown something of the seedy underbelly of this country ... how racism and fascism can still raise its ugly head from time to time and be greeted not with disgust but with approval. We are not as morally pure as a nation than we have pretended that we were.

3. We have learned what a President can do when he is no longer restricted by the bounds of propriety, good sense, diplomacy, or self-sacrifice, and how blind an electorate can be to that President's faults.

4. We have been given a glimpse of how even our own government can cast doubts about the integrity of a free press and the value of free speech, by casting the press and the demonstrators as evil influences on the country. The practice of putting reporters behind chain-link fences during rallies and subjecting them to public humiliation (under the pretense of "protecting them" from the crowd) is the equivalent of putting people into stocks in the colonial period, and it should not be the practice of a civilized society.

For showing us all these things, I am grateful for Donald Trump.
-- JLT
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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:50 am

JLT wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 10:37 am
Things I am grateful for during this administration:

1. We have been shown the value of informed, unbiased, competent people in government agencies through their conspicuous absence in the current administration. In its emasculation of the State Department, the Environmental Protection Agency, and several other agencies, the administration has demonstrated how catastrophic such cutbacks can be for foreign and domestic policy. One can only hope that future administrations will take this to heart and be able to undo some of the damage, and to avoid such bad decisions in the future. Case in point: after Dubya's calamatous handling of Katrina, the Obama administration reformed FEMA and staffed it with people who actually knew something about disaster control, which made Hurricane Sandy and the Deepwater Horizon episodes a lot less devastating than they would have been otherwise.

2. We have been shown something of the seedy underbelly of this country ... how racism and fascism can still raise its ugly head from time to time and be greeted not with disgust but with approval. We are not as morally pure as a nation than we have pretended that we were.

3. We have learned what a President can do when he is no longer restricted by the bounds of propriety, good sense, diplomacy, or self-sacrifice, and how blind an electorate can be to that President's faults.

4. We have been given a glimpse of how even our own government can cast doubts about the integrity of a free press and the value of free speech, by casting the press and the demonstrators as evil influences on the country. The practice of putting reporters behind chain-link fences during rallies and subjecting them to public humiliation (under the pretense of "protecting them" from the crowd) is the equivalent of putting people into stocks in the colonial period, and it should not be the practice of a civilized society.

For showing us all these things, I am grateful for Donald Trump.

This is very true.
Colin
(look forward to getting back to this, but "busy in Los Alamos" is now "busy in Los Angeles". Sheesh)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by hippiewannabe » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:18 pm

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 9:29 pm
On a small scale, my intent is to make the members of this forum better ambassadors of the anti - trump platform. So I am focusing on process...HOW do we become better ambassadors of an anti trump platform, not on the WHAT of the platform.
So, you were looking for practice dummies? :violent1:

Hard to believe you didn't get any volunteers. :yawinkle:
Truth is like poetry.
And most people fucking hate poetry.

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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:51 am

hippiewannabe wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:18 pm
TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 9:29 pm
On a small scale, my intent is to make the members of this forum better ambassadors of the anti - trump platform. So I am focusing on process...HOW do we become better ambassadors of an anti trump platform, not on the WHAT of the platform.
So, you were looking for practice dummies? :violent1:

Hard to believe you didn't get any volunteers. :yawinkle:
Guess that's one way of looking at it :blackeye: Just today, a friend posted on FB that since trump is a sick @hole, therefore everyone that voted for him is like that too. I pointed out that I voted for Hillary, and there was a LOT I didn't like about her. People have forgotten how to listen and be empathetic. It's really sad to see the polarization.
1976 VW Bus aka tripod
FI ...not leaky, and not so noisy...and she runs awesome!
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Re: what has trump done right?

Post by hippiewannabe » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:13 pm

I caught up with a friend who moved away years ago. We spoke on the phone a few times, and became Facebook friends. Back in April Barbara Bush died, around the same time some magician did. He posted how the entertainer was going to a euphemism for heaven, and Barbara Bush was going to hell. Perhaps I should have engaged him, to maybe rethink such a statement, but I immediately unfriended him.
Truth is like poetry.
And most people fucking hate poetry.

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