Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

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whc03grady
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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by whc03grady » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:59 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

72Hardtop wrote:
whc03grady wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:
whc03grady wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:You do realize war is about killing the other right. What's so decent about that?
When someone doesn't recognize the difference between killing and torturing, I'm not sure that there's much that can be said to them.

As I said earlier. It's a matter of opinion. I'm not inclined to give barbarian terrorists any thing short of extermination.
But we're not talking about extermination, we're talking about torture. Yes, exterminate terrorists like you would a dog with rabies. But you don't pull the dog's claws out with pliers before you put him down, and you don't pour acid in his kennelmates' eyes to see whether they'll give him away.

I'm not sure what you are declaring to be a matter of opinion.
So it's your opinion that torture is worse than death? Using a dog as an example (comparison) is horrible. A dog won't cough up the truth.
Don't be coy; you understand the metaphor.

Yes, torturing someone in the ways relevant to this thread is worse than killing them straight up. That's my opinion, but who cares that it's my opinion--it's also a fact. (Similarly, I'm of the opinion that the Moon is not made out of cheese, and that 1+1=2.)
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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by 72Hardtop » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:06 pm

whc03grady wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:
whc03grady wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:
whc03grady wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:You do realize war is about killing the other right. What's so decent about that?
When someone doesn't recognize the difference between killing and torturing, I'm not sure that there's much that can be said to them.

As I said earlier. It's a matter of opinion. I'm not inclined to give barbarian terrorists any thing short of extermination.
But we're not talking about extermination, we're talking about torture. Yes, exterminate terrorists like you would a dog with rabies. But you don't pull the dog's claws out with pliers before you put him down, and you don't pour acid in his kennelmates' eyes to see whether they'll give him away.

I'm not sure what you are declaring to be a matter of opinion.
So it's your opinion that torture is worse than death? Using a dog as an example (comparison) is horrible. A dog won't cough up the truth.
Don't be coy; you understand the metaphor.

Yes, torturing someone in the ways relevant to this thread is worse than killing them straight up. That's my opinion, but who cares that it's my opinion--it's also a fact. (Similarly, I'm of the opinion that the Moon is not made out of cheese, and that 1+1=2.)
Try not using a word out of context it doesn't help your case.

At the end of the day the dead individual doesn't go home that's a fact.
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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:37 am

72Hardtop wrote: Standards of decency? Buwahahahahahah!.....Buwahahahahahahaha....Buwahhahahahaha!
Hannibal Lector? Is that you?
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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:43 am

whc03grady wrote: But we're not talking about extermination, we're talking about torture.
Yes, exterminate terrorists like you would a dog with rabies.
But you don't pull the dog's claws out with pliers before you put him down,
and you don't pour acid in his kennelmates' eyes to see whether they'll give him away.

I'm not sure what you are declaring to be a matter of opinion.
That there is a clear analogy that makes sense.

Now then, I have to go one step further. 72Hardtop tries to dehumanize terrorists as "barbarians".

That is exactly what we were called when this country was fighting to be born.

I think 72Hardtop has some learning to do, to understand why people halfway around the globe are so profoundly upset with us, and he need look no further than our domestic terrorism to see that there are many times disturbed people **who use ideology or religion as cover** and only an equally disturbed hateful idiot would then blame the whole religion for the actions of the disturbed. But then again, if your response to disturbed people is as disturbed, there is precious little learning or understanding going around.
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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by 72Hardtop » Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:02 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
whc03grady wrote: But we're not talking about extermination, we're talking about torture.
Yes, exterminate terrorists like you would a dog with rabies.
But you don't pull the dog's claws out with pliers before you put him down,
and you don't pour acid in his kennelmates' eyes to see whether they'll give him away.

I'm not sure what you are declaring to be a matter of opinion.
That there is a clear analogy that makes sense.

Now then, I have to go one step further. 72Hardtop tries to dehumanize terrorists as "barbarians".

That is exactly what we were called when this country was fighting to be born.

I think 72Hardtop has some learning to do, to understand why people halfway around the globe are so profoundly upset with us, and he need look no further than our domestic terrorism to see that there are many times disturbed people **who use ideology or religion as cover** and only an equally disturbed hateful idiot would then blame the whole religion for the actions of the disturbed. But then again, if your response to disturbed people is as disturbed, there is precious little learning or understanding going around.
Colin

Terrorists are nothing more than barbarians. To try to understand them is akin to accepting their actions as excusable. Domestic terrorism is mighty different than foreign terrorism. For one domestic terrorism happens far and few between. I don't consider the incident in Oklahoma terrorism. IMO that was nothing more than an individual upset with the government. Not much different than the person who goes on a workplace shooting rampage. Not great...but much different than what's going on abroad.
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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:58 am

72Hardtop wrote: Terrorists are nothing more than barbarians.
To try to understand them is akin to accepting their actions as excusable.
Who said? Who is making up "the rules" around here? Did I say that I accept their actions? I accept neither their actions nor ours.
72Hardtop wrote: Domestic terrorism is mighty different than foreign terrorism. I don't consider the incident in Oklahoma terrorism. IMO that was nothing more than an individual upset with the government.
Who says domestic is mighty different? Committing mayhem and murder on a mass scale is terrorism. Period. Blowing up a building in Oklahoma City was an act of terrorism. Blowing up Harrods in London is terrorism. Period.
72Hardtop wrote:For one domestic terrorism happens far and few between.
As does "foreign terrorism". It really is not about frequency . . . :flower:
72Hardtop wrote: Not much different than the person who goes on a workplace shooting rampage. Not great...but much different than what's going on abroad.
It is identically the same. We are all human beings. You cannot evade this. We are all human beings. Only human beings commit mass murder. As a human being, I look *inward* for answers. They are there. I can as easily understand those two nitwits who blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City as I can those idiots who crashed into the World Trade Center. I understand why Adam Lanza went into my elementary school and shot dead a classroom of first graders. As a human being, I understand the depths of alienation and rage. I do. Deeply.

That said, I also *know* a better way to bring human beings from childhood to adulthood so that they never think to commit mass atrocities or even kick the dog. Yeah, I do.
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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by 72Hardtop » Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:31 am

Amskeptic wrote:
72Hardtop wrote: Terrorists are nothing more than barbarians.
To try to understand them is akin to accepting their actions as excusable.
Who said? Who is making up "the rules" around here? Did I say that I accept their actions? I accept neither their actions nor ours.
72Hardtop wrote: Domestic terrorism is mighty different than foreign terrorism. I don't consider the incident in Oklahoma terrorism. IMO that was nothing more than an individual upset with the government.
Who says domestic is mighty different? Committing mayhem and murder on a mass scale is terrorism. Period. Blowing up a building in Oklahoma City was an act of terrorism. Blowing up Harrods in London is terrorism. Period.
72Hardtop wrote:For one domestic terrorism happens far and few between.
As does "foreign terrorism". It really is not about frequency . . . :flower:
72Hardtop wrote: Not much different than the person who goes on a workplace shooting rampage. Not great...but much different than what's going on abroad.
It is identically the same. We are all human beings. You cannot evade this. We are all human beings. Only human beings commit mass murder. As a human being, I look *inward* for answers. They are there. I can as easily understand those two nitwits who blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City as I can those idiots who crashed into the World Trade Center. I understand why Adam Lanza went into my elementary school and shot dead a classroom of first graders. As a human being, I understand the depths of alienation and rage. I do. Deeply.

That said, I also *know* a better way to bring human beings from childhood to adulthood so that they never think to commit mass atrocities or even kick the dog. Yeah, I do.
Colin


One can't cure mental illness. It wouldn't be wise to make such a claim 'So one never commits mass murder'. The end result is very disappointing. Animals have been known to commit mass suicide. So they say...

It isn't up to us to find solutions for their problems. We can only do what we need to do to make every US citizen safe no matter what that may be or take to accomplish it. Terrorists are nothing more than monsters and they do NOT deserve to be treated as humans. They are NOT to be treated 'humanely' because they are not human.

The time for dealing with terrorism on a diplomatic level is over. Long over. Decades and billions dollars (if not trillions) have been wasted in trying to deal/defeat terrorism on a diplomatic level. The time for diplomacy is over. There is only one way to deal with terrorists and that is with the use of 'brute' force. To many folks in this country sit on their libatard soap boxes while I and countless brothers/sisters who've served (and cont. to) understand truly what's at stake, all the while continuing to provide the sheep at home a warm blanket of freedom. I leave you with this...
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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:04 am

72Hardtop wrote: One can't cure mental illness. It wouldn't be wise to make such a claim 'So one never commits mass murder'. The end result is very disappointing. Animals have been known to commit mass suicide. So they say...

It isn't up to us to find solutions for their problems. We can only do what we need to do to make every US citizen safe no matter what that may be or take to accomplish it. Terrorists are nothing more than monsters and they do NOT deserve to be treated as humans. They are NOT to be treated 'humanely' because they are not human.

The time for dealing with terrorism on a diplomatic level is over. Long over. Decades and billions dollars (if not trillions) have been wasted in trying to deal/defeat terrorism on a diplomatic level.
Did the Iraq War solve a thing? Did Vietnam? Did deposing the Shah of Iran? Did Israel's Six Day War solve a single thing? We have blown billions and trillions and the lives of our own soldiers wasted trying to solve problems with violence.

I claim that we have *not tried* diplomacy on an effective level because we have not addressed the very real grievances throughout the Middle East. Look carefully at our history. We do have blood on our hands.
It is TIME that we try something seriously different, and it is time for the neo-cons to step away from the saber-rattling war machine that they love so dearly.

The United States is so much more than our military might. We have important ideals and we used to be a beacon for those who yearned to breathe free. Yet, we are now the nation with more people behind bars, more people executed each year, with less economic mobility, with greater wealth inequity, than any other industrialized country. We have a monstrous military budget that does not in any way make us safer in today's world. Ask our own Joint Chiefs of Staff, they will tell you that we have to become leaner and more intelligent and become more sophisticated in our outreach. We could have won the world over with a Marshall Plan for the New Century and saved money at the same time.

. . . and you do not believe a word I write, because you do not believe there is a cure for mental illness, you do not believe that it is "up to us to find solutions for their problems" and you do believe that "the time for dealing with terrorism on a diplomatic level is over. Long over."

Are you familiar with the economic terrorism we have unleashed? Are you familiar with the environmental terrorism we have unleashed? Can you imagine being a Palestian farmer living in his own home for generations and one day, the international powers that be tell you, sorry, this is Israel now, you have to leave? Can you? Then some oil company comes in and pokes holes under your sand and tells you to "get out here, we need this oil." Then munitions companies come in and sell weapons to everybody? And you think that we don't have a part in finding solutions after we "helped" make so many of their problems? When I say "we", I don't mean just Americans, I mean all of the industrialized countries who colonized others, in rather exploitative ways I might add.

The time for dealing with terrorism on a diplomatic level has scarcely begun.
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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by 72Hardtop » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:03 am

Dropping 2 A bombs ended the war on 2 fronts at that.
Pushing North Korea beyond the 38th parallel spared the south as we know it.
Graneda invasion?
Desert Storm freed Kuwait
WW 1
Bosnian conflict/War
Kosovo War
.... to name just a few where millions were likely saved. We are much more than just military but what we have to stop being is the 'World police'. Other countries problems are not for us to figure out or decide what is best. In the end it's up to the people of those said countries. No I don't believe there is a cure for mental illness. Why? Because there isn't one. Does that mean they should not look for a cure? No. Terrorism abroad has reached a boiling point...a point where dialog is meaningless.
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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by Amskeptic » Mon May 18, 2015 7:42 am

72Hardtop wrote: No I don't believe there is a cure for mental illness. Why? Because there isn't one.
Does that mean they should not look for a cure? No.

Terrorism abroad has reached a boiling point...a point where dialog is meaningless.
Your absolutist answer neatly misses the huge advances we have achieved in fighting mental illnesses.
There is not a "cure" in every case, but we have learned how to manage mental illness.

Likewise, there are advances to be made in fighting alienation that leads to terrorism, and we may not cure every crazy, but we can sure as heck manage better than we are trying. Why do *we* sell arms to both sides of conflicts?
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by 72Hardtop » Mon May 18, 2015 8:59 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
72Hardtop wrote: No I don't believe there is a cure for mental illness. Why? Because there isn't one.
Does that mean they should not look for a cure? No.

Terrorism abroad has reached a boiling point...a point where dialog is meaningless.
Your absolutist answer neatly misses the huge advances we have achieved in fighting mental illnesses.
There is not a "cure" in every case, but we have learned how to manage mental illness.

Likewise, there are advances to be made in fighting alienation that leads to terrorism, and we may not cure every crazy, but we can sure as heck manage better than we are trying. Why do *we* sell arms to both sides of conflicts?
Colin
Managing it only goes for so far for so long...until the med combination no longer works or the person stops taking their meds (happens in most cases). When one has a mental disorder that allows them to be a threat to themselves or others they need to be supervised 24-7, no exceptions. Allowing them or trusting them to care for themselves is nothing more than a ticking time bomb...
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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by denjohn » Sun May 24, 2015 10:12 am

This aired on Frontline on the 19th:
Secrets, Politics and Torture
The secret history of the fight over the CIA's controversial interrogation methods, widely criticized as torture.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... d-torture/
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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by denjohn » Sun May 24, 2015 10:21 am

For anyone who may wish to sign a petition urging congress to sunset the patriot act.
This is currently active in congress and meeting considerable resistance.
http://act.credoaction.com/sign/sunset_ ... 910.OoZmoc
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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by Amskeptic » Mon May 25, 2015 5:36 am

denjohn wrote:For anyone who may wish to sign a petition urging congress to sunset the patriot act.
This is currently active in congress and meeting considerable resistance.
http://act.credoaction.com/sign/sunset_ ... 910.OoZmoc
Done . . .
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
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Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Opinions? Senate Intelligence Report

Post by Amskeptic » Mon May 25, 2015 5:38 am

72Hardtop wrote: Managing it only goes for so far for so long...until the med combination no longer works or the person stops taking their meds (happens in most cases). When one has a mental disorder that allows them to be a threat to themselves or others they need to be supervised 24-7, no exceptions. Allowing them or trusting them to care for themselves is nothing more than a ticking time bomb...
I fought against the pharmaceutical angle at U.C.L.A. but only from the Psychology Department. Medications are only a bridge, but we turned them into Big Business. Psychotropic medications are a threat to human beings when misused and over-used and side effects can be atrocious.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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