food for thought...race relations

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JLT
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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by JLT » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:39 am

hippiewannabe wrote: Anecdotes.
<snip>
"Social pathology" -- delinquency, crime, drug abuse, illegitimacy, child neglect, permanent welfare dependency -- is disproportionately concentrated (for whites and blacks alike) in the segment of the population with IQs below 75; at least one-fourth of the black population (compared to one-twentieth of the white population) falls below that critical IQ point in the bell curve
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/iq.htm
That's quite a laundry list of statistics. Would you mind quoting a source for them?

As for the one reference you cited, I suppose you didn't get the word that the statistical basis of Jensen's "Bell Curve" work was called into question almost twenty years ago. Stephen Jay Gould re-analyzed the data under more rigid statistical criteria and found that Jensen's conclusions were not supported by the data.

I can't argue that black populations are over-represented in prison and on welfare rolls. That's because the burdens of poverty are disproportionately placed on them. It has nothing to do with IQ (which is, basically, a measure of a person's ability to pass an IQ test, but doesn't correlate very well with real-life intelligence). It is, instead, the result of centuries of discrimination and apartheid. African-American and Native American groups know full well that they have problems that need addressing, and that the responsibility for addressing the problems lies with them. But part of the problem is, and has been for years, a disconnect between what they expect in the way of protection of their rights, and what they've been given instead. One of these disconnects is the way they're treated by police, and that's the issue being addressed here.

I kind of know where you're coming from. I grew up white and middle-class and therefore privileged. And cops were always friendly to me. But when I grew my hair down past my shoulders and started living in Baltimore's inner city, I suddenly became the kind of person that cops would harass for no reason, and passing truckers would spit on. I cannot conceive what it must have been like for people to have been treated that way from the time they could walk. So I kind of know where they're coming from, too.
-- JLT
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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:42 pm

hippiewannabe wrote: Heck, the rate of auto accident deaths is 100 per million.

More black male high school dropouts aged 20–35 are in custody than in paid employment;
70% of black babies are born to single mothers.
To paraphrase the philosopher Ice-T, black America's got 99 problems, and police violence ain’t one.
Plenty of fascinating and complex social phenomena surrounds us. Many many ways to interpret the data.

For example, the stigma of being a child of a single mother is greater on the suburban white child, while it is more understood and accepted in the urban black community.

Black drop-outs have been groomed to drop out, if you look at elementary school discipline. Unbelievable bias right out of the box. You could say that a punitive overworked teacher helps to land our black children in jail. The stats prove this. And these children who have been prejudiced against in elementary school are absolutely wired to be prejudiced against by authority figures known as "police". The astonishing number of blacks in jail I cannot ever interpret at face value to mean that they are just so much less behaved.

I was a delinquent, hippiewannabee. I did not have the words or the clarity to express my furies against my very own in-house hypocrites who presented a perfect facade in polite daytime company, so my fury leaked out at school against these prissy little autocrat teachers whose bestowed "authority" was not earned, whose punitive classroom shaming sessions alienated me away from the "good kids". I was game for every sadistic authoritarian asshole teacher that needed to have an incident to make their assholish day complete with "proof" of their asshole assumptions. Power and privilege and assumptions have little to do with the truth of human lives, and I'll be damned, but there is a large group of your fellow Americans that are bearing the brunt of power privilege assumptions and authoritarian assholery, and they have heard all of the justifications before. There comes a time when words like "obey" are the very last fucking thing you are ever going to do so help you God, because you have had enough.

I know people who can spot that last stand, who can identify that last stand, and actually know how to diffuse it with grace and dignity and maturity, and nobody has to die. At this point in our Nation's history, I say that the onus is not on the people whose lives take hopeless turns and they have to sell "loosies", but on the people who swear to protect and to serve.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by hippiewannabe » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:41 pm

JLT wrote:That's quite a laundry list of statistics. Would you mind quoting a source for them?
I knew some of that data, but double checked with Google to back them up before posting:
http://www.vpc.org/studies/blackhomicide14.pdf
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/sunda ... -good.html
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr62/nvsr62_06.pdf
My favorite was Mother Jones. They were trying to prove the racist case, but when they came up with the 3.6 people per million being killed by the cops, that's when it hit me that it is not a legitimate problem, compared to the 100 times that number killed by black criminals :
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... -race-data

JLT wrote:As for the one reference you cited, I suppose you didn't get the word that the statistical basis of Jensen's "Bell Curve" work was called into question almost twenty years ago. Stephen Jay Gould re-analyzed the data under more rigid statistical criteria and found that Jensen's conclusions were not supported by the data.
Well, Gould has been debunked as more politically motivated than scientific. Herrnstein and Murray stupidly and unnecessarily brought in the genetic factor in IQ, which was certain to bring the wrath of the establishment down on them. But it doesn’t matter; whether you argue with the tests, or if IQ is a good measure of intelligence, the correlation between IQ and life outcomes is a simple, unassailable fact.
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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by hippiewannabe » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:48 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
hippiewannabe wrote: Heck, the rate of auto accident deaths is 100 per million.

More black male high school dropouts aged 20–35 are in custody than in paid employment;
70% of black babies are born to single mothers.
To paraphrase the philosopher Ice-T, black America's got 99 problems, and police violence ain’t one.
Plenty of fascinating and complex social phenomena surrounds us. Many many ways to interpret the data.

For example, the stigma of being a child of a single mother is greater on the suburban white child, while it is more understood and accepted in the urban black community.

Black drop-outs have been groomed to drop out, if you look at elementary school discipline. Unbelievable bias right out of the box. You could say that a punitive overworked teacher helps to land our black children in jail. The stats prove this. And these children who have been prejudiced against in elementary school are absolutely wired to be prejudiced against by authority figures known as "police". The astonishing number of blacks in jail I cannot ever interpret at face value to mean that they are just so much less behaved.

I was a delinquent, hippiewannabee. I did not have the words or the clarity to express my furies against my very own in-house hypocrites who presented a perfect facade in polite daytime company, so my fury leaked out at school against these prissy little autocrat teachers whose bestowed "authority" was not earned, whose punitive classroom shaming sessions alienated me away from the "good kids". I was game for every sadistic authoritarian asshole teacher that needed to have an incident to make their assholish day complete with "proof" of their asshole assumptions. Power and privilege and assumptions have little to do with the truth of human lives, and I'll be damned, but there is a large group of your fellow Americans that are bearing the brunt of power privilege assumptions and authoritarian assholery, and they have heard all of the justifications before. There comes a time when words like "obey" are the very last fucking thing you are ever going to do so help you God, because you have had enough.

I know people who can spot that last stand, who can identify that last stand, and actually know how to diffuse it with grace and dignity and maturity, and nobody has to die. At this point in our Nation's history, I say that the onus is not on the people whose lives take hopeless turns and they have to sell "loosies", but on the people who swear to protect and to serve.
Colin
I get all that. My point is the confrontation with the cops at the end of that chain is a symptom, not a root cause. The energy should be put in to the root causes, not attacking the cop on the street who has to make split-second life and death decisions. it's too much to ask to understand the background and hidden motivations of every suspect. They have to react to the situation as it presents itself in real time.
Truth is like poetry.
And most people fucking hate poetry.

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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:24 am

hippiewannabe wrote: I get all that.

My point is the confrontation with the cops at the end of that chain is a symptom, not a root cause. The energy should be put in to the root causes, not attacking the cop on the street who has to make split-second life and death decisions. it's too much to ask to understand the background and hidden motivations of every suspect. They have to react to the situation as it presents itself in real time.

You got all that?

I was in a "cop" role for decades, as an authority figure for a bunch of spirited kids away from home at summer camp. While there, I learned what worked.

I am here to attack the cop. You bet your ass. You trot out excuses for them that make me wince. I am intimately familiar with authority strategies, and I saw the authority figures who were ridiculed behind their back, and authority figures who actually earned deep respect and loyalty.

"it's too much to ask to understand the background and hidden motivations of every suspect"

This looks like a typical conservative/liberal scornful trope. Who asked that a cop needs to understand the background and hidden motivations of every suspect? That question needs to be asked of the cop BEFORE asking it of the suspect. Cops come from authoritarian asshole families where the damaged kid is going to try to right the wrongs in his own damaged psyche by terrorizing hapless losers, and he is going to feed off the mob at the station house which makes him far more dangerous than any suspect who has decided that this society is unjust so fuck it.

Eric Garner was not a split-second life-or-death react to the situation moment. Please.
"the confrontation with the cops at the end of that chain is a symptom, not a root cause"
No kidding.
Way too many videos out there show cops going rogue on citizens because they have become angry contemptuous assholes who absolutely have not earned any respect or right to compliance. That I recommend (as do you) compliance if at all possible, is a pragmatic suggestion that does not address root causes either.

I have chatted with a lot of cops, hippiewannabee. Most of the time, I start off as the "suspect". Most of the time we end it with "well, you drive safe, have a good trip." That is because I ask of myself to understand the background and hidden motivations of every cop.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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JLT
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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by JLT » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:53 pm

hippiewannabe wrote:
JLT wrote:That's quite a laundry list of statistics. Would you mind quoting a source for them?

http://www.vpc.org/studies/blackhomicide14.pdf
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/sunda ... -good.html
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr62/nvsr62_06.pdf
Thanks for providing those citations. They make very interesting reading, although many arguments could be made on either side of the debate using the same statistics.
My favorite was Mother Jones. They were trying to prove the racist case, but when they came up with the 3.6 people per million being killed by the cops, that's when it hit me that it is not a legitimate problem, compared to the 100 times that number killed by black criminals :
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... -race-data
I read that article but missed the part about the "100 times that number killed by black criminals." But assuming that's true, is that surprising, when elsewhere it's mentioned that most people are killed by people who knew them? (And as for "criminals," well, since they killed somebody and were convicted of the crime, I guess that makes them criminals, but the way you stated it, it implies that they were criminals before they killed somebody. Maybe they were, if you count a person who shop-lifted a pack of cigarettes or jay-walked as "criminal.")
Well, Gould has been debunked as more politically motivated than scientific.
The problem that critics had with Gould's The Mismeasure of Man had to do with his re-interpretation of the data compiled by psychologists of the last century. That re-interpretation has itself come under fire in recent years, with the controversy divided mostly by varying interpretations of what is meant by the data. At least, that's what I gathered from a Wikipedia article on the book. In Gould's defense, it must be pointed out that he has at least as many adherents in the scientific community as he has critics, and that he himself would have probably welcomed the debate had he lived that long.
But it doesn’t matter; whether you argue with the tests, or if IQ is a good measure of intelligence, the correlation between IQ and life outcomes is a simple, unassailable fact.
I understand that, but it can easily be re-phrased as "if you do well on an IQ test (in other words, have the necessary reading skills and the ability to think critically), you will do well in life." I have no problem with that. But those who weren't trained in those skills are already at a handicap, regardless of their innate "intelligence." And those who were raised in broken families and went to mediocre schools with huge class sizes and little supervision are not as likely to get those skills than more privileged people. And they will produce families who also lack those skills. It's a vicious circle, and our task is to break that circle.

But the issue at hand is how to ensure that citizens of whatever race are treated with dignity by the police who are entrusted with their protection. How do we do that? What tools do we have? Where do we go from here to get to that place? Certainly the cops have a right to self-protection against threats, but when they are dealing with a mindset that says BLACK=THREAT, then they are in more in danger of responding inappropriately to threats.

And that mind-set is real. Just about any black man driving a nice car after dark in a nice neighborhood can tell you of a confrontation with cops who assumed that he was up to no good. Some years ago, when I was working in a city agency with mostly black co-workers, I asked some of them about whether that had happened to them, and every one said it had. Every one. In fact, the fact that I had to ask the question seemed to surprise them. I don't think the situation has really changed that much.
-- JLT
Sacramento CA

Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie "George"
(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
Former buses: '61 17-window Deluxe "Pink Bus"
'70 Frankenwestie "Blunder Bus"
'71 Frankenwestie "Thunder Bus"

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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by hippiewannabe » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:52 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
hippiewannabe wrote: I get all that.

My point is the confrontation with the cops at the end of that chain is a symptom, not a root cause. The energy should be put in to the root causes, not attacking the cop on the street who has to make split-second life and death decisions. it's too much to ask to understand the background and hidden motivations of every suspect. They have to react to the situation as it presents itself in real time.

You got all that?

I was in a "cop" role for decades, as an authority figure for a bunch of spirited kids away from home at summer camp. While there, I learned what worked.

I am here to attack the cop. You bet your ass. You trot out excuses for them that make me wince. I am intimately familiar with authority strategies, and I saw the authority figures who were ridiculed behind their back, and authority figures who actually earned deep respect and loyalty.

"it's too much to ask to understand the background and hidden motivations of every suspect"

This looks like a typical conservative/liberal scornful trope. Who asked that a cop needs to understand the background and hidden motivations of every suspect? That question needs to be asked of the cop BEFORE asking it of the suspect. Cops come from authoritarian asshole families where the damaged kid is going to try to right the wrongs in his own damaged psyche by terrorizing hapless losers, and he is going to feed off the mob at the station house which makes him far more dangerous than any suspect who has decided that this society is unjust so fuck it.

Eric Garner was not a split-second life-or-death react to the situation moment. Please.
"the confrontation with the cops at the end of that chain is a symptom, not a root cause"
No kidding.
Way too many videos out there show cops going rogue on citizens because they have become angry contemptuous assholes who absolutely have not earned any respect or right to compliance. That I recommend (as do you) compliance if at all possible, is a pragmatic suggestion that does not address root causes either.

I have chatted with a lot of cops, hippiewannabee. Most of the time, I start off as the "suspect". Most of the time we end it with "well, you drive safe, have a good trip." That is because I ask of myself to understand the background and hidden motivations of every cop.
Colin
I get all that, too. Being a cop is not a normal job, and people that do that job are not normal. They are on a bit of a power trip, and they are not the brightest bulbs on the tree. You need to recognize that, and just give them what they need.

You think you have outsmarted them because you understand their background and hidden motivations. Come on Colin, get real. You cooperated, and were deferential. That's all they need. If all the black men we are talking about had done the same, they would be here to tell the tale.

I'll go you one better. When I get pulled over, I think to myself "fuck off, you power-tripping half-wit". Then I swallow real hard, and call them "sir". Every ticket has been brought down to at least 10 mph below my actual speed. I pay my reduced fine, and move on. White privilege my ass.

I get you have problems with authority, and it is through that lens you are taking sides. The fact remains; obey the law, respect the cops, and you have nothing to fear.

Watch the entire video again. Eric Garner had every chance to make this arrest peaceful and routine, like the other 30, including the ones for assault. It doesn't matter if it's for jay walking, murder, or evading taxes on cigarettes; if you get pinched, just go along, don't say anything, and fight it in court.
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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by hippiewannabe » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:27 pm

JLT wrote:
hippiewannabe wrote:
My favorite was Mother Jones. They were trying to prove the racist case, but when they came up with the 3.6 people per million being killed by the cops, that's when it hit me that it is not a legitimate problem, compared to the 100 times that number killed by black criminals :
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... -race-data
I read that article but missed the part about the "100 times that number killed by black criminals."
Of course they wouldn't include inconvenient facts in that article. They weren't trying to present a balanced analysis, it was pure propaganda, I cross-referenced from here:

http://www.vpc.org/studies/blackhomicide14.pdf
The homicide rate for black male victims was 31.67 per 100,000.
Truth is like poetry.
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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by JLT » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:13 am

hippiewannabe wrote:[The homicide rate for black male victims was 31.67 per 100,000.
Emphasis is mine. From the same paragraph of the same report:
The homicide rate among black victims in the United States was 17.51 per 100,000.
Why did you use the 31.67 figure when the 17.51 figure more accurately compared the statistics?

But 17.51 is still appalling, compared to a 2.64 rate for whites. We can conclude that either

1. Black people are far more violent and, since most of the crime is black on black, that violence is directed toward black people, or

2. Black people don't have the level of police protection because the cops in their area are more interested in busting people for selling loosies than solving murder cases.

or, just maybe

3. Black people have been forced by racial segregation, community pressure, and low income to live in high-density, low-service areas that are breeding grounds for societal ills and frustration. Add a lot of guns to this mix, and you get a lot of homicides.

I see in today's paper that Congress passed, and Obama signed, a bill that would require police departments to track and report incidents where people died not only while in custody, but in the arrest process. (There was such a bill before, but it expired in 2006 and was not renewed by Congress.) I think that's a good sign that we're starting to take this issue seriously.

When I was with the Health Department, I sat through a lot of meetings with residents of the inner city who had grievances with the police, fire, and health departments. I heard a lot of things that don't get reported in the paper or discussed within the white community. May I suggest that you attend a few of those meetings where you live, and see if your perspective might change a wee bit?
-- JLT
Sacramento CA

Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie "George"
(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
Former buses: '61 17-window Deluxe "Pink Bus"
'70 Frankenwestie "Blunder Bus"
'71 Frankenwestie "Thunder Bus"

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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:25 pm

hippiewannabe wrote: You think you have outsmarted them because you understand their background and hidden motivations. Come on Colin, get real. You cooperated, and were deferential. That's all they need.
Now this I find fascinating . . .
You, hippiewannabee, being the person-with-unique-experiences-and-beliefs-that-comprise-you, have *interpreted* my interaction with policemen as "you think you have outsmarted them".

This is amazingly adversarial to me. I am not so constructed.

I wrote, and you read, that I am cooperative and compliant because of pragmatic self-interest. I did not claim that I psychoanalyzed them and "won" the exchange.
If I want a short interaction because the rest of my day calls, I can be forgettably dry.
But many times, we get into conversations! Not to outsmart them, but to learn, to connect, to enrich. THIS I do. Cops and drug dealers and ranchers and the music director of the Rochester Philharmonic and the old guy with the RV and poodle and a doctor who was involved with Doctors Without Borders.
Geeze.

You want to get real, punk, well, do ya? Come on with me to Chicago and South Central LA. Bring your shiny bus and dress tattily. We'll urban camp. It's a blast.
Colin :cherry:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by hippiewannabe » Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:43 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
hippiewannabe wrote: You think you have outsmarted them because you understand their background and hidden motivations. Come on Colin, get real. You cooperated, and were deferential. That's all they need.
Now this I find fascinating . . .
You, hippiewannabee, being the person-with-unique-experiences-and-beliefs-that-comprise-you, have *interpreted* my interaction with policemen as "you think you have outsmarted them".
Amskeptic wrote:...I am here to attack the cop. You bet your ass.... I am intimately familiar with authority strategies......Cops come from authoritarian asshole families where the damaged kid is going to try to right the wrongs in his own damaged psyche by terrorizing hapless losers, and he is going to feed off the mob at the station house which makes him far more dangerous than any suspect who has decided that this society is unjust so fuck it..........I have chatted with a lot of cops, hippiewannabee. Most of the time, I start off as the "suspect". Most of the time we end it with "well, you drive safe, have a good trip." That is because I ask of myself to understand the background and hidden motivations of every cop.
The words, standing alone, would lead me to the same interpretation every time. But as you say, that's coming from my experiences as a salesman and negotiator and cop out-smarter, coupled with the tone of your attacks on cops.

What you meant is what you meant, so thanks for the explanation.
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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by hippiewannabe » Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:41 pm

JLT wrote:
hippiewannabe wrote:[The homicide rate for black male victims was 31.67 per 100,000.
Emphasis is mine. From the same paragraph of the same report:
The homicide rate among black victims in the United States was 17.51 per 100,000.
Why did you use the 31.67 figure when the 17.51 figure more accurately compared the statistics?
Black males are what we've been talking about. it's a pretty safe assumption most of the blacks killed by cops are male, so that was the right number for comparison. Even discounting that, 50 times vs. 100 times still makes the same point; we're not talking percentage differences, it's an order of magnitude. Statistically, violence by cops is not one of the major problems facing the black community, and it's just another distraction from the underlying pathologies.
Truth is like poetry.
And most people fucking hate poetry.

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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by Spezialist » Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:27 pm

Hi all,
I'm going try again. Happy Holidays.

This is a subject that is important to me, since I do not consider myself a racist and have been called one numerous times.
I live in hawaii and here the culture is all about celebrating every bit of whatever you have in you.
Be you white black brown green or red.
That is where I will always come from, in my posts in this kind of topic.
To begin with my beliefs are this,
Race is racist correct?
Culture is culture, ethnicity is?
Anyway.
White and black in America is a legal fiction in my opinion because it has nothing to with anything other than an American historical mindset and skin color.
There is a thing in America called black culture and there is another called white culture.
And then you have Indians. Which are black, white, red and brown and culturally very different than from white american culture.
Then moving deeper, Culturally Black America and Indian America "get each other" understand each other (for the most part)
I'm going to leave it that for now, and read some of the other responses and try to catch up.

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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by Spezialist » Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:47 pm

Bleyseng wrote:You all just have to get out more... I have friends all colors/hues/ethnicbackgrounds and variety is the spice of life. Yep, most American White people are pretty boring IMHO.
When you say american white people what so you mean?
We have Italian, Irish, German, English, "European Genric, can't think of all of em folks"
And then you have something that is very unknown in America, and what put the term Caucasian in disfavor.
American Indians who are white skinned, blond, red hair, various other hues, with blue green grey etc eyes.
Who have zip nada zilch European blood to account for the "assumed Eurocentric phenotypes"
565 tribes in America currently and what Hollywood presents as indian is a narrow view, because historically if you could pass for "white" you did.
So are your boring white friends Indians or Europeans?
Why this is important is this, culturally White indians are the same as say a Mexican, or other minority.
This is not mean to be offensive at all, this is exploratory and a sensitive topic to me.
Please do not flame me, I don't feel I ever intentionally flamed anyone on this forum ever, but I admit I have a unique perspective and have strong opinions and can be irritating, if you don't show me where the particular phrase is I don't know it. The irritation is this, I've grown up in your world, but my school and life experience was not the same as the average american, without getting into details I will leave it at that.
I really want to I overcome misunderstandings we have had.

Spezialist
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Re: food for thought...race relations

Post by Spezialist » Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:08 pm

Ah, one last thing.
Culture is tied to spirit, and Spirituality is very private to my culture, so if I appear to be evading a question give me patience to work out a way of talking about it that is fair to both of us.
I think it's why I've appeared arrogant or whatever description fits your experience.
And finally, although I speak your language, I do not think in it.
I think in pictures and covert everything back and forth. I honestly do not understand the concept of thinking in words, this last bit is a new understanding verbally for me.

And the issue is this
I am Hopi through my mother "matriarchal", my father was Ojibwe and he had one European ancestor about 400 years ago we believe, but cannot prove that.
My Grandmother was the last Of our clan born at Oraibi in 1906, she is who raised me.
Does that make me a half breed, no for two reasons.
For the one obviously one possible euro ancestor from 400 years ago out of litterally hundreds does not make one euro.
And two, calling an Indian a half breed or anything close to that is akin to calling any other minority a derogatory name.
I will not list them because they are common knowledge.
American Indian identity is protected by the Supreme Court
And making off hand remarks is considered hate speach in America , so no, We will not just get over it.
Thanks for reading if you made it this far, aloha with all my heart.
Please excuse any simple errors of spelling or grammar.

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