Gas Prices in Minnesota . . .

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Gas Prices in Minnesota . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:40 am

This is an article penned by a username "govs" from the Daily Kos that I have edited for brevity. I travel around the country and am always pained by severe differences in gas prices. I never have been able to understand them based on any true capitalist supply and demand model. My business rises and falls based on gas costs, and I pay attention to the surrounding context. I remember when California got screwed within months of the Dick Cheney Energy Task Force meetings in the White House in the summer of 2001. Representative Henry Waxman of California had to devote much of his remaining time in office trying to puncture the walls surrounding that blatant market manipulation by Dynergy and Enron that cost Gray Davis the governor's office of California (you may remember that the Enron and Dynergy case files, along with the SEC investigative files all got pancaked in Building 7's bizarre collapse 5 hours after two planes hit two other buildings on 9/11/2001).
Now we have last summer in Minnesota:
Two refineries supply almost all the gasoline sold to Minnesota consumers.
One is the St. Paul Park refinery, owned by Northern Tier Energy,
the other is the Pine Bend refinery, owned by Koch Oil, the Koch brothers.
The Pine Bend Flint Hills refinery supplies between 50% and 75% of the Minnesota gasoline market.

In 2012, control of the state legislature switched from the republicans to the democrats. The new democratic leaders of the legislature elected in 2012 campaigned on, and made it clear that their election would result in, significant new taxes to close the projected $6.2 billion biennium government deficit, and significant new spending on education and transportation infrastructure. With Mark Dayton, democrat, as governor elected in 2010, the democrats were situated to deliver on their campaign promises.

The first democratically controlled state legislature after the 2012 elections convened on January 8, 2013, and was constitutionally mandated to adjourn at midnight, May 20, 2013.

During the 2013 session, in early April, the House Transportation Committee proposed to raise taxes on gasoline by 5 cents per gallon. Dayton, for reasons unknown, let it be known that he was opposed. In response, in late April, the Transportation Committee proposed a tax on wholesale oil suppliers.

On May 16, 2013, the price of gasoline jumped 40 cents overnight. The price increase pushed the per-gallon price of gasoline to the highest in the continental United States. Blame for the increase was placed on the usual suspects, except one. Bad weather in the Gulf of Mexico, trouble in the Middle East, jump in demand, shortage of supply, etc.were bandied about, but the real reason was that the Pine Bend Refinery had to close for “maintenance.”

On May 20, the legislature adjourned, having increased taxes on the wealthy and on businesses.
The tax increases were bitterly opposed by the Chamber of Commerce and the business lobby,
but all the proposed tax increases passed, except one: the oil tax increase failed.
Who wants to explain a gasoline tax that would increase prices even more than the then (suddenly) prevailing $4.29 per gallon price?

Now the curious part. Check out the gasoline and oil prices for Minnesota for 2013:

Image

The reason that a “jump in oil prices” could not be blamed for the jump in gasoline prices was because it could be too easily verified to be untrue. Oil prices actually fell that week.

More importantly, the price of gasoline fell a dollar gallon in the two weeks following the legislature’s adjournment to slightly below its price in the weeks before adjournment, and before the May 16th price increase.

How did Wisconsin feel no pain, but Minnesota got whacked. What is the difference between Wisconsin and Minnesota? How about Wisconsin’s governor takes personal phone calls from David Koch? I cannot guess what evil motives lurk in the hearts of men like the Kochs, but I have a whole lot more evidence of their economic and political buccaneering –and outright financial harm to the public- than the Kochs have in their multi-million dollar fraudulent attack on Obamacare.

Are Tea Party republicans so far gone that they cannot see how government power, in which they at least have a voice, helps protect them from the direct out-of –pocket harm inflicted by the unrestrained power of a Koch oligopoly, in which they have no voice?

Epilogue. The tax and spending increases passed by the Democrats turned a $6.2 billion biennium deficit into a $1.2 billion surplus and reduced unemployment from 6.7% to 4.7% within 18 months. Only transportation infrastructure got stiffed, thanks to the Kochs.
Please note that Minnesota got their deficit under control as did California with tax increases that did not herald the end of the world nor did they ruin jobs, quite the opposite.
If there are but six people left here in Free Speech, 2014, may I invite you to consider the midterm elections coming up. We cannot allow our country to fall to the plutocrats. If you note with passive despair that there is a lot of misinformation out there, and you cannot bear the thought of arguing with the defenders of this current state of affairs, please note that informing yourself is the best fortification. It allows you to wait whilst they blow their invective out, then you can dispassionately lay out the facts.
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BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Gas Prices in Minnesota . . .

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:13 pm

Granted, MI has some of the highest gas taxes in the nation (believe we are in the top 10 if not the top 5 IIRC). However, it does seem to me that our prices will take huge fluctuations northward while the rest of the country is status quo....no rhyme or reason.
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Re: Gas Prices in Minnesota . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:16 pm

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:Granted, MI has some of the highest gas taxes in the nation (believe we are in the top 10 if not the top 5 IIRC). However, it does seem to me that our prices will take huge fluctuations northward while the rest of the country is status quo....no rhyme or reason.
As more people get better at analyzing trends on the internet and creating great graphs with their computers, we may find more answers sooner. There are strange reasons afloat, and I strongly suggest that we not accept the prevailing "orthodoxies", reliably spewed by the principal players of these games.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Gas Prices in Minnesota . . .

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:02 pm

I've given it some thought, and if they came up with an electric car, and also the charging infrastructure such that it was as convenient as buying gas (e.g. pull up to a charging station, plug in for 5-10 min and be on my way for another 300 miles at highway speeds) I could almost give up fossil fuel .... i'd still want the option for my motorcycle and my bus when the mood strikes. :)

I like the comfort of my nearly 20 y/o BMW...and at 25-28 mpg hwy gas would have to start perking close to $5 a gallon before the cost/benefit would be outweighed .... and at that point I would want something that got 50 mpg...probably a VW diesel.

Guess my point is, stuff happens which we can't control, but we can control how we react to that stuff. If I lived in a warmer climate the options would open up (eg two wheeled options both pedal power and gas power).
1976 VW Bus aka tripod
FI ...not leaky, and not so noisy...and she runs awesome!
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Re: Gas Prices in Minnesota . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:36 am

TrollFromDownBelow wrote: if they came up with an electric car, and also the charging infrastructure such that it was as convenient as buying gas (e.g. pull up to a charging station, plug in for 5-10 min and be on my way for another 300 miles at highway speeds)
Well . . . imagine pulling in to a rest stop, swiping your card, and just *exchanging your battery* for a charged one. It would only require an "architecture standard" so that all batteries were compatible with each other.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Gas Prices in Minnesota . . .

Post by Westy78 » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:12 am

Amskeptic wrote:
TrollFromDownBelow wrote: if they came up with an electric car, and also the charging infrastructure such that it was as convenient as buying gas (e.g. pull up to a charging station, plug in for 5-10 min and be on my way for another 300 miles at highway speeds)
Well . . . imagine pulling in to a rest stop, swiping your card, and just *exchanging your battery* for a charged one. It would only require an "architecture standard" so that all batteries were compatible with each other.
Colin

That may be coming.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/better-place/

Problem will still exist for those who like to travel off the beaten path. You can always carry a spare fuel can or two. Not really doable with electric unless they come up with some kind of portable generator but what will run the generator?

I think the U.S. is woefully behind the times as far as our infrastructure goes. It's going to take a paradigm shift in the way we do things as far as transportation before we ween ourselves of the teat of big oil. Even I would greatly miss the feeling and sound of that torquey BMW V8 pushing me back in the seat when I feel the need. Artificially pumped in engine "sound" just isn't going to give that primal feel of power even though the instant torque of a performance electric engine could blow away that V8. :bounce:
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Re: Gas Prices in Minnesota . . .

Post by Westy78 » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:13 am

Or maybe not......

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/0 ... huts-down/

Unless you have the cash to put out on a Tesla....

http://vimeo.com/68832891
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Re: Gas Prices in Minnesota . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:11 pm

Westy78 wrote:
It's going to take a paradigm shift in the way we do things as far as transportation before we ween ourselves of the teat of big oil.
Looking forward to it.
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I'll have to fill the trunk of my Lincoln with batteries and use a wheel motor off a locomotive. I think Neil Young was doing something like that.

Image
Westy78 wrote:
Even I would greatly miss the feeling and sound of that torquey BMW V8 pushing me back in the seat when I feel the need. Artificially pumped in engine "sound" just isn't going to give that primal feel of power even though the instant torque of a performance electric engine could blow away that V8.
For the first quarter mile, perhaps, but I believe my V8 Lexus/your V8 BMW is still pulling at 149 mph . . . for several hours.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Gas Prices in Minnesota . . .

Post by Sylvester » Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:44 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Well . . . imagine pulling in to a rest stop, swiping your card, and just *exchanging your battery* for a charged one. It would only require an "architecture standard" so that all batteries were compatible with each other.
Colin
There are a lot of Nissan Leaf's around here now, apparently Nissan had a killer deal for leased Leafs and people around here jumped all over it.
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue, I’ve topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace. Where never lark, or even eagle flew. And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod, The high untrespassed sanctity of space, Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

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Re: Gas Prices in Minnesota . . .

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:43 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
TrollFromDownBelow wrote: if they came up with an electric car, and also the charging infrastructure such that it was as convenient as buying gas (e.g. pull up to a charging station, plug in for 5-10 min and be on my way for another 300 miles at highway speeds)
Well . . . imagine pulling in to a rest stop, swiping your card, and just *exchanging your battery* for a charged one. It would only require an "architecture standard" so that all batteries were compatible with each other.
Colin
Either/or would work.....focus is on convenience/time especially when traveling from the homestead. Even to do this as just a local commuter, I would need a battery that would last for a minimum of 80 miles on one charge at highway speeds in freeze your tucus weather with the heat on high. Also need to be able to charge it in the driveway (hey, the bus gets priority garage space :flower: ).

I'm liking the battery exchange idea, as folks who live in apartments may not have the capability of doing 'home charging'.
1976 VW Bus aka tripod
FI ...not leaky, and not so noisy...and she runs awesome!
hambone wrote: There are those out there with no other aim but to bunch panties. It's like arguing with a pretzel.
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Re: Gas Prices in Minnesota . . .

Post by hippiewannabe » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:01 pm

Amskeptic wrote: Image

Hmm. That graph seems to prove that the market adusts; in the long term prices are about where they started. Refineries do have to be taken offline for "maintenance", and after the price spike, supplies rushed in from elsewhere, and prices were lower, relative to crude, than beforehand. Koch owns 3 of the 143 refineries in the U.S., there is no way they can move prices significantly over a significant area for a significant amount of time.

Amskeptic wrote: Image
That is so awesome. Made perfect sense in its time.

Electric cars work well enough. Even a century ago. It has been a simple matter of cost, performance and convenience. Put a big enough tax on gas to pay for the externalities of Middle East - Russian oil / global warming / urban air quality, and they'll take hold.
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Re: Gas Prices in Minnesota . . .

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:07 pm

hippiewannabe wrote:That graph seems to prove that the market adusts; in the long term prices are about where they started.
Lomg term, I was glad to see that things basically sort of even out. Short term, I was there when it was still high. It made no sense. Neither did that little town in New Jersey that socked me for $4.37, and of course the famous I-15 stop midway between LA and Las Vegas . . . $6.15 during the run-up.
hippiewannabe wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: [imgLincoln/img]
That is so awesome. Made perfect sense in its time.
You mean with the 430 V8 actually running? I think it got a rated 10mpg. Mine is adjusted for almost 12.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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