Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by Amskeptic » Fri May 03, 2013 10:55 am

airkooledchris wrote:http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-a ... share_copy

Jon Stewart had a great piece last night on the constitution (and talking about Miranda rights being issued to one of the bombing suspects.)
Boy if that ain't perfect . . . Those people at Fox, do they not feel embarrassed? Ever?
In reality, it is terrifying to see people so stupid so stupid so mean so ignorantly over-focused, that they would sell out 200 years of a noble experiment in Democracy poof! just like that. Was that guy Jon Stewart referred to as "Fox's only liberal", was that the infamous Dick Morris of Election Night shame? That guy has to be sat down and told, clearly, "get lost, no really, you do not meet our minimum standards for public co-mingling."
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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by BellePlaine » Thu May 23, 2013 7:39 am

Regarding the London attack yesterday:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/ ... WU20130523
"We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reason we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day," he said. "This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

"He said: 'I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan.'"
In case anyone forgot that we are still fighting war(s). Yesterday’s event doesn’t exist in a vacuum. We fight these perpetual wars against an ideology; not only are these wars unwinnable, they serve to make us less safe. Vote Libertarian.
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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by hippiewannabe » Sun May 26, 2013 8:39 pm

Image

Image

Image

Image

Not a single mention of the innocent people murdered by evil zealots.

This makes me sad.

You blame the victims, and attack the media outlets that have the courage to call the truth.

Muslim Chechen immigrants given scholarships that need to murder an eight year old child, a vivacious, athletic waitress, an immigrant student, and a public servant because of what we are doing in Afghanistan. Because we fought back against the perpetrators of 9-11 and those who sheltered them. And because we continue to help the country that doesn't want them to again seize control by force, terrorize the local population, and provide another safe haven for international terrorists.

Moral relativism has its place, but not here. Evil is evil, and the freedom you enjoy to toss brickbats from the peanut gallery is under siege. If we lose, you lose too.
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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by BellePlaine » Wed May 29, 2013 6:38 am

Thank you, hippiewannabe, for the reply. I use your anger to try and understand how the other side feels about the deaths to innocent people in other parts of the world as a result of the war(s) that we are involved in.

The London attacker said, "eye for an eye" and if we feel the same, we will never be a nation at peace.
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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by RussellK » Wed May 29, 2013 11:20 am

Did the London attacker mention how angered he was with Muslim v Muslim killings? I wonder if today's insurgent attack on a Red Cross station- it provides neutral aid to Afghans- angered him also? I would caution using these lone wolf psycho jobs and their twisted interpretation as representative of anything other than what they are. Pathetic cowards. If I thought they carried a shred of humanity I might feel differently but they don't - so I give them zero credence. The Taliban trade in nothing but violence and brutality with no compunction against killing and terrorizing their own people. It has never been a wrong decision to remove them from power. History in time may see our defeat of the Tali as one of our more honorable acts.

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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by hippiewannabe » Wed May 29, 2013 6:55 pm

BellePlaine wrote:Thank you, hippiewannabe, for the reply. I use your anger to try and understand how the other side feels about the deaths to innocent people in other parts of the world as a result of the war(s) that we are involved in.

The London attacker said, "eye for an eye" and if we feel the same, we will never be a nation at peace.
I see. A Chechen college student in Boston counts as "the other side" for what we are doing in Afghanistan. By that logic, you would empathize with a Brazilian student in Lebenon who has to murder an eight year old Muslim child because the Christians are being abused and killed in Egypt. Got it.
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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by BellePlaine » Wed May 29, 2013 7:57 pm

My original post was regarding the London attacker. My intention was to point out that we are still at war and our warring has consequences. I believe that your signature agrees with my sentiment. I think that our intervention in Afghanistan, while perhaps "honorable", is at this point doing more harm than good. I think that we are perhaps inspiring hatred and making ourselves a target for further attacks here at home.

I am very much aware that I am in the minority of Americans that think this way. Maybe we remember WWII, and believe that America can always do big things. We want that role back, maybe, I don't know. Personally, I don't believe in putting ourselves in harms way on behalf of other sovereign countries because we can't control other people just like we would not put up with another nation getting involved in our business.

I don't know you, hippiewannabe, but I am uncomfortable with how I am apparently coming across to you. You are responding with emotional jabs and I don't know why nor do I care to debate that way. I'm bowing out of this thread.
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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by BellePlaine » Fri May 31, 2013 10:43 am

Good Lord, I'm back. A little embarrassed at myself for returning after saying that I'm out because I thought that I was making myself look like an ass, but I just read an article that nails my take on this situation, so I'm willing to risk more jack-assery. The writer is able to say want I wish I had the skill to say to hippiewannabe and others. The subject is exactly about how others get pissed when pointing out that we are inviting attack at home. Here it is:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... m-woolwich

Glenn Greenwald
guardian.co.uk, Saturday 25 May 2013 09.32 EDT

Afghan villagers in the Kunar province sit near the bodies of 10 children killed in a Nato airstrike in Afghanistan on 7 April 2013. Photograph: Reuters
(updated below)

Everyone who participates in political debates sometimes has their arguments publicly misrepresented. Like many writers, if I noted and refuted every case where that happened to me, I would have time for nothing else. But sometimes the distortions are so fundamental and obvious - as well as pernicious - that they are worth examining. I had intended to write today about the reaction to this week's War on Terror speech by President Obama, but will postpone that until tomorrow so that I can instead discuss what Andrew Sullivan (and others) did yesterday. Beyond my wanting to correct their glaring distortions, the episode raises some interesting broader points that drive debates on these issues.

On Thursday, I wrote about the London killing of a British soldier by two men using a meat cleaver. The sub-headline, which I wrote, called it a "horrific act of violence", a phrase I repeated in the very first sentence. I described that event as one where the solider had been "hacked to death". In the second paragraph, I wrote:

That this was a barbaric and horrendous act goes without saying."

I then proceeded to raise two main points about the attack. First, given that the person killed was not a civilian but a soldier of a nation at war (using US standards), it is difficult to devise a definition of "terrorism" that encompasses this attack while excluding large numbers of recent acts by the US, the UK and many of their allies and partners.

Second, despite the self-serving bewilderment that is typically expressed whenever western nations are the targets rather than perpetrators of violence - why would anyone possibly be so monstrous and savage as to want to attack us this way? - the answer is actually well-known and well-documented. As explained by the CIA ("blowback"), the Pentagon (they "do not 'hate our freedom,' but rather, they hate our policies"), former CIA agents ("we could try invading, occupying and droning Muslim countries a little less, and see if that helps. Maybe prop up fewer corrupt and tyrannical Muslim regimes"), and British combat veterans ("it should by now be self-evident that by attacking Muslims overseas, you will occasionally spawn twisted and, as we saw yesterday, even murderous hatred at home"), spending decades bombing, invading, occupying, droning, interfering in, imposing tyranny on, and creating lawless prisons in other countries generates intense anti-American and anti-western rage (for obvious reasons) and ensures that those western nations will be attacked as well. In the London case, the attacker cited precisely such anger at US/UK aggression as his motive ("this British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. . . . the only reason we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily"). Those are just facts.

Having written about these matters many times before, I know exactly how some people reflexively try to radically distort the argument beyond recognition in order to smear you as a Terror apologist, a Terrorist-lover or worse, all for the thought crime of raising these issues. To do so, they deceitfully conflate claims of causation (A is one of the causes of B) with justification (B is justified). Anyone operating with the most basic levels of rationality understands that these concepts are distinct. To discuss what motivates a person to engage in Action B is not remotely to justify Action B.

To use the example recently provided by former CIA agent Barry Eisler in his brilliant explanation of "blowback", if Person X walks up to Person Y on the street and spits in his face, and Person Y then pulls out a gun and shoots Person X in the head and kills him in retaliation, one can observe that Person X's spitting was a causal factor in Person Y's behavior without remotely justifying Person Y's lethal violence. One can point out that a potential cost of walking up to people on the street and spitting in their face is that they are likely to respond with similar or worse aggression - and that this is one reason not to engage in such behavior - without justifying or legitimizing the response that is provoked and without denying (or even minimizing) the agency or blame of the person who responds.

This is all so basic and self-evident that it should be unnecessary to point it out. But I know from prior experience in having my arguments on this issue wildly distorted and smeared that it's quite necessary. So I did point it out: by several times making clear exactly what I was - and was not - arguing, and did so as explicitly as the English language permits:

As I've endlessly pointed out, highlighting this causation doesn't remotely justify the acts."

Concerning whether this attack should be categorized as "terrorism", I explained precisely why it's vital to ask that question: because the term bears such great significance legally, politically, culturally, and emotionally and yet has no clear or consistently applied definition, and is thus used as a propaganda tool to glorify violence and other conduct by western states while rendering inherently illegitimate all violence directed at those states. In doing so, I was equally explicit about what I was and was not arguing [emphasis added]:

"I know this vital caveat will fall on deaf ears for some, but nothing about this discussion has anything to do with justifiability. An act can be vile, evil, and devoid of justification without being 'terrorism': indeed, most of the worst atrocities of the 20th Century, from the Holocaust to the wanton slaughter of Stalin and Pol Pot and the massive destruction of human life in Vietnam, are not typically described as 'terrorism'. To question whether something qualifies as 'terrorism' is not remotely to justify or even mitigate it. That should go without saying, though I know it doesn't."

If anyone knows of a way to make that any clearer, do let me know.

So now we come to what Andrew Sullivan and others told their readers that I argued. Announcing at the start that "I really have to try restrain my anger here", Sullivan quickly accused me of spreading "Islamist propaganda". Arguing that US intervention in the Muslim world both before and after the 9/11 attack was noble and often beneficent - yes, he actually argued that with a straight face - he demands to know of me: "How can that legitimize a British citizen's brutal beheading of a fellow British citizen on the streets of London?" He then added: "The idea that this foul, religious bigotry . . . is some kind of legitimate protest against a fast-ending war is just perverse." He concludes with a real flourish: my "blindness to the savagery at the heart of Salafism", he decrees, "is very hard to understand, let alone forgive".

That I "legitimated" the London attack or argued it was a "legitimate protest" is as obvious a fabrication as it gets. Not only did I argue no such thing, and not only did I say the exact opposite of what Sullivan and others falsely attribute to me, but I expressly repudiated - in advance - the very claims they try to impose on me. Even vociferous critics of what I wrote, writing in neocon venues, understood this point ("I do find myself wanting to agree with Greenwald in arguing that this is an atrocious murder rather than an act of terror"). Does Sullivan actually think that people who argued that the London attack should not be called "terrorism" (like Chris Hayes), or who pointed out the role played by western aggression in motivating them (like former British soldier Joe Glenton), or who have long warned of "blowback" in the form of such attacks (like the CIA and Pentagon), are remotely arguing that the attack was justified? Sullivan's behavior evinces a blatant inability or refusal to critique what I wrote without distorting it beyond all recognition.

So self-evident was Sullivan's Friday night bad conduct here that, within hours, numerous people had harshly condemned it. Law professor Kevin Jon Heller wrote: "Sullivan distorts Greenwald's argument beyond all recognition; I can only assume deliberately." University of Chicago Professor Harold Pollack complained that he "shouldn't have to click past Sullivan's angry post to see that Greenwald labelled [the] beheading 'barbaric and horrendous'". One of Sullivan's readers wrote him a lengthy and very astute email, published in full here, explaining to him that "your fundamental misreading of Greenwald's column is succinctly stated in your sentence: 'How can that [U.S. history in the Mideast] legitimize a British citizen's brutal beheading of a fellow British citizen on the streets of London?' Greenwald never remotely said that."

Now we arrive at the broader points that I think are raised by all of this. Contrary to Professor Heller's suggestion, I actually don't think that Sullivan's flagrant misrepresentations of what I wrote were deliberate. I definitely do think that about Jeffrey Goldberg and other various neocon smear artists who spent the last couple of days endlessly and loudly accusing me of being a pro-Terror, US-blaming Terrorist-lover, Jew-hating Terror-apologist and all the other tired neocon clichés that have been hurled at anyone and everyone over the last decade who questions the Mandated Narratives about "Islamic Terror", the US and Israel. Willfully smearing people as pro-Terrorists in order to deter free and rational discussions of US and Israeli aggression is what they do. It's their function, their chosen tactic. One expects that from them. It's just part of the landscape. Had it been confined to that crowd, I barely would have noticed, let alone responded. They and their deceitful smear tactics ceased being effective eight or nine years ago. Nobody cares anymore.

But Sullivan's behavior here is more interesting and revealing. He's certainly smart enough to comprehend the points being made, so that's not the problem. Amazingly, as his reader pointed out, Sullivan - a mere ten days ago - himself sought to defend President Obama (his life's mission) in the Benghazi controversy by posting an article in the American Prospect arguing as follows:

Benghazi was not a terrorist act. Or an act of terror. Or an act of terrorism . . . . So why wasn't Benghazi terrorism? Because the people targeted weren't civilians."

That's exactly the argument I raised about the London attack that sent Sullivan into spasms of moral denunciation. Does denying that the Benghazi attack was "an act of terror" mean that one is justifying it? Sullivan answered that very question when he quoted that same Benghazi article as explaining: "That doesn't make their deaths any less tragic or painful for their families, but it's the truth. Nor is a CIA outpost a civilian target." Indeed, as I documented, the only standards that could be used to support the choice of an off-duty solider in London as a target to kill are the standards promulgated by the US (which I vehemently reject) that holds that we are "at war", that "the entire globe is a battlefield", and that it's legitimate to kill anyone suspected of being a combatant in that "war" no matter where they are located or what they are doing at the time they are targeted for killing.

So Sullivan not only understands my point here, but grants himself license to make it himself when doing so advances his cause of praising and defending Obama. What, then, accounts for the distortions and sustained rage that ensues every time I make these arguments - not just from Sullivan but generally?

I think the answer lies in the very first sentence Sullivan wrote when responding to my column: "I really have to try restrain my anger here." It's an intensely emotional reaction, not a rational one. He, and so many others, are deeply invested on a psychological and personal level in protecting the narrative that Islam is a uniquely violent force in the world, that Muslim extremists pose a threat that nobody else poses, and that the US, the West and its allies (including Israel) are morally superior and more civilized than their adversaries, and their violence is more noble and elevated.

Labeling the violent acts of those Muslim Others as "terrorism" - but never our own - is a key weapon used to propagate this worldview. The same is true of the tactic that depicts their violence against us as senseless, primitive, savage and without rational cause, while glorifying our own violence against them as noble, high-minded, benevolent and civilized (we slaughter them with shiny, high-tech drones, cluster bombs, jet fighters and cruise missiles, while they use meat cleavers and razor blades). These are the core propagandistic premises used to sustain the central narrative on which the War on Terror has depended from the start (and, by the way, have been the core premises of imperialism for centuries). That is why those most invested in defending and glorifying this War on Terror become so enraged when those premises are challenged, and it's why they feel a need to use any smears and distortions (he's justifying terrorism!) to discredit those who do. As Sullivan's reader perfectly put it in his email:

"The emotional intensity with which you demand that the London attack be described as 'terrorism' (as opposed to 'horrific act of violence,' 'killing,' 'hack to death,' 'barbaric and horrendous act,' etc., as Greenwald writes) only confirms Greenwald's point that it is important to define what 'terrorism' means, particularly because certain folks have an emotional, political and/or legal reason for insisting on its usage. What free thinker would want to shout down that discussion? Respectfully, that is 'very hard to understand, let alone forgive.'"

But as was clear from the furor that erupted after the debate over the anti-Muslim views of Sam Harris and company, and as is demonstrated again by Sullivan's unhinged reaction here to what I wrote, the need to maintain the belief that Islam is a uniquely grave danger in the world - and that western violence against them is superior to their violence against the west - is one that is incredibly deep-seated and visceral. That seems to be true for several independent reasons.

First, it's a by-product of base tribalism. Americans and westerners have been relentlessly bombarded with the message that We are the Noble and Innocent Victims and those Muslims are the Evil, Primitive, Savage Aggressors, so that's what many people are trained to believe, and view any challenge to that as an assault on their core tribalistic convictions. The defining tribalistic belief that Our Side is Superior (and our violence thus inherently more noble than theirs) has been stoked by political leaders since politics began to sustain support for their aggression and entrench their own power. It's a potent drive - something humans instinctively want to believe - and is therefore one that is easily manipulated by skillful propagandists.

Second, all sorts of agendas are advanced by maintaining these premises in place. As the scholar Remi Brulin has documented, "terrorism" in its recent incarnation was designed by the US to justify all of the violence it wanted to do in the world from Central America to the Middle East, and by Israel to universalize the vicious and intractable conflicts it has with its Arab neighbors (our wars aren't just our fights with them over land; it's a global struggle to stop a plague that is also your fight: against Terrorism). A great new book by Harvard's Lisa Stampnitzky makes the argument indicated by its title: "Disciplining Terror: How Experts Invented 'Terrorism'". The functional meaninglessness of the term "terrorism" and its highly manipulative exploitation are vital to several political agendas. That fact renders the guardians of those agendas furious when the conventional and highly emotional understanding of the term is questioned, and especially when it's suggested that anti-western violence isn't best understood as the by-product of unique pathologies in Islam but rather in the context of decades of western aggression toward that region.

Indeed, most of the responses to my argument ignored the questions I posed about the definition of "terrorism" and instead rested on pure irrational rage: this was a Muslim who used a knife to kill a westerner; of course it was terrorism (or, as Sullivan put it, "If we cannot call a man who does that in the name of God and finishes by warning his fellow citizens 'You will never be safe' a terrorist, who would fit that description, apart, of course, in Glenn's view, Barack Obama?"). Or, alternatively, critics of what I wrote simply fabricated what I argued (he blames the west and thinks the Terrorists have no agency!), or spewed outrage at the mere suggestion that anything the west does is comparable to the violence we saw on the London street. As his emailer put it about the rational discussion Sullivan allowed himself about whether the Benghazi attack was terrorism: "Imagine if someone then responded to you pointing out that fact (like Greenwald did) with the type of sanctimonious outburst that you showed here. Would you have even taken it seriously?"

Third, and I think most significantly, there is a very potent human need to deny responsibility for our own actions and avoid being shown the worst attributes of our own behavior, and a corresponding "kill-the-messenger" impulse aimed at those who want to focus on (rather than hide) all of that. It's not irrelevant that Sullivan (along with Jeffrey Goldberg, Tom Friedman and Christopher Hitchens) was one of the world's most vocal, most passionate, and most effective media cheerleaders for the attack on Iraq (which he yesterday acknowledged was "a criminal enterprise and strategic catastrophe" even while justifying it on the ground that it "removed one of the most vicious mass murderers of Muslims on the planet"). But Sullivan was not only that: he also led the way (along with Hitchens) in implanting in the public mind the idea that the US and the UK were leading a Grand Civilization War, and he spouted some of the most repellent rhetoric of demonization against anyone who uttered any protest.

Sullivan, to his credit, has since apologized for his leading public role in all of that. But as his response to me (and other recent posts) make clear, the Civilization Warrior who accuses people of being sympathetic to The Terrorists is still always lurking close to the surface ("Islam's fanatical side – from the Taliban to the Tsarnaevs – is more murderous than most", he wrote last month). I don't think it's hard to see why he, along with so many others, clings so fervently, even instinctively, to these precepts.

No matter how many evil things your government does, no matter how many innocent people are killed by the political leader you deliriously adore, no matter how much blood you have on your own hands for exploiting your media platform to publicly cheer for mass violence and slaughter, all of that can be redeemed, or at least mitigated, only if there is Someone Else Over There who you can point to as The Supreme and Unique Evil. Sure, we make mistakes and do some bad things. But we're not like them: the Ultimate Savages. The Primitive Islamic Hordes. The Terrorists. That's why it's urgent that these designations of special evil (Terrorist) be reserved exclusively for Them: only then can we elevate ourselves.

Once that framework is implanted, then our violence is understandable, noble, well-intentioned, necessitated by their pure evil. By stark contrast, their violence is sub-human, senseless, and utterly unrelated to anything we do. Just marvel at the visceral and psychologically revealing language that Sullivan, after ennobling western violence, uses for the London attack [his emphasis]: "terrorism in its most animal-like form, created and sustained entirely by religious fanaticism which would find any excuse to murder, destroy and oppress Muslims and non-Muslims in the name of God." This is the very personal need that bolsters this worldview and prompts such rage when it is challenged: the need to view oneself in a better light, to avoid the reality of what one supports and enables.

I used to wonder how people like Sullivan and other Americans and westerners, who continuously justify any manner of violence and militarism by their own side, could possibly spend so much time pointing to others and depicting them - those people over there - as the embodiment of violence and savage aggression. But at some point I realized that it's precisely because they continuously justify so much violence and aggression from their side that they have such a boundless compulsion to depict others as the Uniquely Primitive and Violent Evil. That's how they absolve themselves. It's how they distract themselves from the reality of what they support and what their governments do in the world. And it's why few things produce quite as much personal resentment and anger than demanding that they first gaze into a mirror before issuing these absolutist denunciations about others.

UPDATE

For reasons I'll let the Guardian explain, all of the comments to all of the columns and articles posted on the London attack were deleted, and the comment sections then closed. I hope that won't happen to today's column here, as the topics discussed here are not really about the attack but the broader debate about terrorism. But it's possible that it will happen again. Those wanting to post comments should be aware of this possibility before spending your time and energy to write one.

• Comments have been removed for legal reasons. Further explanation of UK law around active court cases here
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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by JLT » Fri May 31, 2013 3:26 pm

BellePlaine wrote:I just read an article that nails my take on this situation, so I'm willing to risk more jack-assery. The writer is able to say want I wish I had the skill to say to hippiewannabe and others. The subject is exactly about how others get pissed when pointing out that we are inviting attack at home. Here it is:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... m-woolwich
Thanks very much for posting that. It articulates what I've been thinking about all this.

It is possible to understand the reasons for something without buying into the argument that these reasons are valid. A person from another culture might not see things the way you do, and the fact that our cultures are at war with each other makes the problem worse, because it pretty much guarantees that no dialogue will be taking place.

The London killers justified their attack (I hear) by stating that it was not murder, but military action, because the victim was in the military. This is in conflict with what the western nations have called the "rules of engagement" but the killers went by different rules, and by those rules the killing was justified. (I'm leaving aside whether the US itself shows much respect for western "rules of engagement." Clearly, that's a different argument, but one worth exploring.)

There is a difference between this killing and the Boston bombings, because the victims were people whose only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The targeting of innocent civilians is, by definition, terrorism. It is one thing to strike fear in the hearts of those who are in combat against you, in the hopes of reducing their will to fight you, and quite another thing to strike fear in the hearts of those who are not combatants by any reasonable definition of the term, in the hopes that you will somehow recruit them to your cause or at least stay out of your way.

Thus, labeling the London killing an act of terrorism depends on whether one considers a soldier of a nation that is at war with you a combatant, regardless of where that soldier happens to be or whether he or she is armed at the time. And that, I'm sure, will be the crux of the defense when the killers go to trial.

Gandhi used to say that it doesn't matter how it started, or who started it, or why. Those things only matter when one is trying to affix blame, and usually end up providing justification for keeping things going the way they are. And that is unacceptable to any reasoning person. The only thing that really matters is that it stops. Now.
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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by pj » Fri May 31, 2013 3:29 pm

"Thus, labeling the London killing an act of terrorism depends on whether one considers a soldier of a nation that is at war with you a combatant, regardless of where that soldier happens to be or whether he or she is armed at the time. And that, I'm sure, will be the crux of the defense when the killers go to trial."

The killers were British citizen's, so I don't think the trooper was at war with his fellow countrymen.

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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by JLT » Fri May 31, 2013 3:45 pm

pj wrote: The killers were British citizens, so I don't think the trooper was at war with his fellow countrymen.
Ah, but the fellow countrymen were at war with him. Their allegiance was not to Britain, but to Islam (as they interpreted it). I doubt that the courts are going to see it that way, but that was their justification. You are free to disagree with it (as I do, in fact), but you still have to acknowledge it if you want to arrive at any understanding of why the killing took place.
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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by denjohn » Fri May 31, 2013 7:17 pm

Amskeptic wrote:If so, what is the correct national response?
this brief, but all too-uncomfortable animated clip, summarizes the reality of fear in the US and Terrorism for Dummies...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTfau2i8 ... r_embedded
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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by airkooledchris » Fri May 31, 2013 9:50 pm

denjohn wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:If so, what is the correct national response?
Terrorism Explained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTfau2i8 ... r_embedded
that is the title of the video you linked to, correct.

their goal is not to kill, but to scare? and they won? I think people are way more gung ho that they tracked those MF's down as quickly as they did. In the end, if that really was their goal - they failed (or died, or will wish they had died soon enough.)


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Re: Boston Marathon Terrorist Attack?

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:48 am

Good exchange here, sorry I missed it. Too much driving too many places.

As I see Americans occasionally express deep emotion against people they have never met and do not know, "kill those damn terrorists", I see people in Middle Eastern countries express deep emotion against the United States, "kill those imperialist aggressors!"
In the former case, we have not been subjected to occupation or blanket bombings or continual drone strikes. In the latter case, they have. I think we have to make allowances for that.

I think we have to be very discerning too to see that disaffected rogue actors who committed the terrorism like we saw in Boston, kids who may have spouted Islamist rhetoric, do *not* speak for the aggrieved people of the Middle East, they have merely hoisted a flag that does not belong to them.

The profoundly disaffected sometimes do that, they identify with larger entities without any legitimacy.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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