Dark Knight in Aurora Colorado

[Cindy]

I'm not interested in HOW he did this. We can't really stop anybody from getting a gun (or, as Russell pointed out, from killing people any which way they want). I want to know WHY he did it. What went wrong in his head? And who failed to catch it? I wish we, as a nation, were more of a community. He got seriously hurt somewhere along the way and nobody noticed that damage. Or, if he was mentally ill, he didn't get the care he required.

My dad has about 25 guns in his house and I say so what? He shoots targets at the club. The psychological health and well-being of the gun owner is the most important factor here.

Americans mostly suck at foresight and prevention.

Cindy

[RussellK]

Cindy you make a great point. I was thinking about that mother that shot her kids and herself and I was wondering about the gun being accessible. At what point of treatment should you be barred, how much medical disclosure. I bought a shotgun a few years ago and all I had to do was check a box that I had never been treated for mental illness. What kind of test is that?

I hate to say it but I meet people that fit the category of odd almost daily. How the heck am I supposed to ID odd and also dangerous?

[Amskeptic]

For example:
"The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths."

In other words, more than 50% of gun deaths are self-inflicted, like those who choose to eat themselves to death.

Lest I should cross that line to which I am perilously close, I hereby ban myself.
ML

I speak on behalf of the 12,632 souls in this country who were removed from this life by other people. It is a horrendous number of lives with untold family members irrevocably changed.

The suicide rate from guns is equally horrible. I find it excruciatingly tragic.

Yet, I am shunted into a defensive position here with your insulting claim that I suffer from "intellectual dishonesty" for engaging in a debate that I think we need to have. Your claim that I want to take away all guns is the only intellectual dishonesty I see here, and your pre-emptive "ban myself" nonsense is tedious. It is just a discussion here, not a titanic battle of egos.

Yes please, take another breather while I pray for the intact honesty of those souls who are entrusted in your care in the hallowed halls of academia, I'll pray too for the integrity of higher education in this challenging environment of successive (succeeding the Bay-Boomers, even) tidal waves of egotistical pedantic mediocrity drowning the spirited love of challenging intellectual discourse under the poisoned ivy.

Colin

[Amskeptic]

Cindy you make a great point. I was thinking about that mother that shot her kids and herself and I was wondering about the gun being accessible. At what point of treatment should you be barred, how much medical disclosure. I bought a shotgun a few years ago and all I had to do was check a box that I had never been treated for mental illness. What kind of test is that?

I hate to say it but I meet people that fit the category of odd almost daily. How the heck am I supposed to ID odd and also dangerous?

[Cindy]

There has to be a way for us to notice within our own circles. I wouldn't expect us to gauge the mental health of perfect strangers. But within our own families we ignore dysfunction. In the schools teachers see the signs abuse and ignore them. These situations have a source that might be identified long before the point of background checks.

[airkooledchris]

this goes back to an earlier point someone made - why not have a co-signer required for buying a gun?

if you don't know anyone willing to co-sign that your not too crazy to own a gun - then your too crazy to own a gun.

with the red flags this kid was throwing around, and the warning that even the school's psychiatrist sent out - maybe it would have helped.

[RussellK]

this goes back to an earlier point someone made - why not have a co-signer required for buying a gun?

if you don't know anyone willing to co-sign that your not too crazy to own a gun - then your too crazy to own a gun.

with the red flags this kid was throwing around, and the warning that even the school's psychiatrist sent out - maybe it would have helped.

makes sense to me. While a person could probably buy a gun we don't have to make it easy.

[Bleyseng]

Like I stated earlier, my neighbor wants to own a hand gun. A policeman interviewed me and 4 other neighbors to see if we were ok with it AND to vouch that this man was capable to own a gun (meaning sane). It takes 1 to 2 months for the paperwork and background check and then he can buy a gun and use it in the gun training course which he has to pass before taking it home.

and I am living in a 3rd world country!
The USA guns laws IMHO are absurd and aren't at all close to what the founders of the constitution and Bill of Rights meant. Besides that why does gun ownership trump our life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Filling the USA so that every person could have one gun but only 25% of the people own the guns seem outlandish. One gun per owner seems enough for protection or if you hunt then a couple more.
I understand that the founders wanted to have weapons spread among the people as the British outlawed personal ownership at one point. Rifles were party of the landed gentry and used for hunting.

[vdubyah73]

the founding fathers specifically wanted us to have the right to bear arms in order that we may rise up against a tyrannical gov't. self defense is secondary.

i'm done here in free speech....again. most dissenters have already left the room, may as well join them.

[Reid]

Cindy, I'm not trying to be funny, but I'm from Alabama. Everyone that I'm related to has guns, but not one of them seems stable, or well adjusted to me. Mental health care is considered some sort of weakness or certainly something to be skeptical of. Add in some poverty and general William Faulkner like creepiness, and you can see how I will never be able to identify anyone around me who is about to snap.

[dingo]

Cindy, I'm not trying to be funny, but I'm from Alabama. Everyone that I'm related to has guns, but not one of them seems stable, or well adjusted to me. Mental health care is considered some sort of weakness or certainly something to be skeptical of. Add in some poverty and general William Faulkner like creepiness, and you can see how I will never be able to identify anyone around me who is about to snap.

yeah William Faulkner had a good insight into the dark underbelly of the American experiment...he would probably be able to put his finger on it...

[vdubyah73]

This is on the edge of stepping over the line. We are having a conversation.

Is it a "conversation when:

You shout down others?
Dismiss facts/arguments that run counter to your claims?
Offer insults and derision about unrelated elements such as my teaching or students?

That's not discussion, it's bullying - and it's unacceptable.



ML

Had to get on a real computer for emoticons.

I've seen this for years. Why did Turk get so confrontational? He didn't start out that way.

I'm gonna speak plain english here. Colin my opinion of you is that you are a phony asshole, have fun with your cabal of acolytes. Just a word of advice before I depart Colin, keep moving and start new friendships with younger people, as I aged I've noticed that people like you can't use pompous, bombastic even articulate bully tactics on people their own age. I'm gonna miss some of you, some may miss me. I am so done here. I'm vdubyah73 over on thesamba if anyone wants to contact me. This will probably be deleted pretty quick, eh?

[Amskeptic]

This is on the edge of stepping over the line. We are having a conversation.

Is it a "conversation when:
You shout down others?
Dismiss facts/arguments that run counter to your claims?
Offer insults and derision about unrelated elements such as my teaching or students?
That's not discussion, it's bullying - and it's unacceptable.
ML

Had to get on a real computer for emoticons.
I've seen this for years. Why did Turk get so confrontational? He didn't start out that way.

I'm gonna speak plain english here. Colin my opinion of you is that you are a phony asshole, have fun with your cabal of acolytes. Just a word of advice before I depart Colin, keep moving and start new friendships with younger people, as I aged I've noticed that people like you can't use pompous, bombastic even articulate bully tactics on people their own age. I'm gonna miss some of you, some may miss me. I am so done here. I'm vdubyah73 over on thesamba if anyone wants to contact me. This will probably be deleted pretty quick, eh?

Will somebody in this discussion please show me where I went wrong?

I thought we were having a discussion about gun control. I was called "intellectually dishonest". That is where it got all personal.

I have strong feelings and opinions about people getting killed by guns, fine, that is my opinion.
Did I ever call vdubyah names or insult Lanval names in the discussion?
Somebody spell it out for me?
Colin
(too nice a day for childishness)

[vdubyah73]

maybe you should learn from thesamba, stay out of these discussions like the admin does over there.

edit to add:

those are my last words on this topic












wait........ civilian assault weapon are only sold as semi auto. gotta have a class III license to own anything full auto or capable of 3 round bursts. those licenses are harder to get than anything already suggested for gun control.

[Bleyseng]

and another seven die at a Sikh temple. Shot by a lone gunman it seems who was killed by a heroic policeman. Our excessive pursuit of gun ownership rights has killed another group of innocent people.

I thought "we" were having a gun control discussion too and I missed the part were you were a phony asshole, Colin. You do have strong views and articulate them fairly well for a old guy. I dunno why people get so upset on internet forums! Maybe is that Blue vs Red state thing going on.