Penn State - Joe Paterno

[TrollFromDownBelow]

P.S. Where does David Brooks get off with a title like "Let's All Feel Superior" ??

Do we have to be inundated with scorn and judgment should we offer that we would (or would like to think that we would) deal with the shower scenario differently? Does David Brook not allow that there are people seriously different than him? Why should they have to be saddled with his judgmentalism as well as deal with such a traumatic experience?
Colin

Did you read the article? ... The title was meant to be sarcastic; he makes the point that (I think) you are trying to make. Tone of the article was, if anything anti-judgmental.

Also, how do you think McQueary acted when he found them in the shower? I've read that he did, in fact stop what was happening.

On a side note, David Brooks book "The Social Animal" was interesting reading.

[Amskeptic]

P.S. Where does David Brooks get off with a title like "Let's All Feel Superior" ??

Do we have to be inundated with scorn and judgment should we offer that we would (or would like to think that we would) deal with the shower scenario differently? Does David Brook not allow that there are people seriously different than him? Why should they have to be saddled with his judgmentalism as well as deal with such a traumatic experience?
Colin

Did you read the article? ...

Troll, I definitely read the article. My understanding of David Brooks goes back a ways.
"The vanity is the outraged reaction of a zillion commentators over the past week, whose indignation is based on the assumption that if they had been in Joe Paterno’s shoes, or assistant coach Mike McQueary’s shoes, they would have behaved better."

What I am saying in response is that it is not about "better", it is not about assumption-based indignation. "Vanity"? that is a David Brooks signature scorn. I think he is an apologist for the status-quo sports/church heirarchies.

Tone of the article was, if anything anti-judgmental.

Also, how do you think McQueary acted when he found them in the shower? I've read that he did, in fact stop what was happening.

It was judgmental against those of us who were amazed and appalled that McQueary did *not* stop the assault. Like Velokid1 and I mentioned, we might have extremely likely gotten ourselves in some trouble stopping things.
Do you honestly think that I would have slinked out and gone and "told on him" (Sandusky) or do you think I would have verbalized my presence, given him an opportunity to clean up, then gone off on him the instant that child was out of his presence?
Yes, I, and a zillion commentators would not have known what we would have done in McQueary's situation, neither would have David Brooks, but you know what? I would not used terms like "vanity" to smear anyone's confusion.

I guess the situation is too damn grave, in my book, to jump on the opprtunity to just be a snippy bitch to those of us who KNOW DAMN WELL we would not just slink away, cowards to the Church of Job Security at the Altar of Sports Heroes.
Colin

[Spezialist]

I TELL YOU WHAT, UNLESS YOU KNOW SOMEONE PERSONALLY WHO HAS EXPERIENCED THIS TYPE OF OFFENSE, shut the HELL up.
This entire thread is so godamn offensive to people who have, it should be deleted.

[Amskeptic]

I TELL YOU WHAT, UNLESS YOU KNOW SOMEONE PERSONALLY WHO HAS EXPERIENCED THIS TYPE OF OFFENSE, shut the HELL up.
This entire thread is so godamn offensive to people who have, it should be deleted.

Wow, um no. Not a good time to shut up.

Clearly, emotions run high, half the time these emotions are not even understood by the people who experience them.
Why is the thread offensive? The subject is terrible. The conversation is not.

As of right about now on planet Earth, of the seven billion souls here, we are millions who have experienced this type of offense. Millions. No time to shut up about it, but share what you can.
Colin

[RussellK]

Shutting the hell up is exactly what we don't need.

[Spezialist]

I will tell you why
In some cultures a parent mastubating their child to sleep is perfectly normal.
And with America being a melting pot, theyre here.
There are so many nuances to this subject, you guys think you're going to fix it by saying what you think is right or wrong.
A formally "abused" man who repeats what was done to him, to another is still a victim.
You really need to get that.
And on top of it, making the crime evil in the publics eye further victimizes the victim.
But you numb nuts don't get that.

I'm not supporting sexual relations between adults and children.
But I will not demonize it either, that only perpetuates the problem.

Adult men who were victimized as children do not think as adults, plain and simple.
They are emotionally handicapped.

It's like war creating more terrorists.

[Gypsie]

But you numb nuts don't get that.

Your point gets lost in name calling. I see your passion but bristle at this type of comment.

Each person walks their own path. Abused or not, each has their own perspective about this subject.

I agree that the sensationalism of these instances can be harmful. I also think that bringing light to abuse of power and discussing the "woulda, coulda shoulda's" can help prevent it in other situations that come up.

Hopefully, those that need it can find healing.

[Spezialist]

But you numb nuts don't get that.

Your point gets lost in name calling. I see your passion but bristle at this type of comment.

Each person walks their own path. Abused or not, each has their own perspective about this subject.

I agree that the sensationalism of these instances can be harmful. I also think that bringing light to abuse of power and discussing the "woulda, coulda shoulda's" can help prevent it in other situations that come up.

Hopefully, those that need it can find healing.

Nothing was lost on my derogatory statement.
In fact it has brought attention to deficits of thought and compassion.
No amount of healing will occur when someone who has experienced trauma has to hide from it constantly.
Try living with a mental disorder caused by something external and reinforced by frequent similar events in the public eye.

Oh wait this is a place where the discussion focused on overweight people as fatties and how they were the problem.
"Self edited irrational response and abusive vocabulary"

An example, a fat person is a person who has health issues and very likely emotional issues to boot.

So let's all make fun of cancer sufferers and HIV victims too, right?

[RussellK]

90 days after the last contribution you jumped in to tell us we should shut the hell up? Man that's rich. And by the way I'm certain there are at least several of us on here that have our own personal histories we've dealt with. Don't presume to speak for anyone but yourself because as far as I'm concerned you're way off the mark.

[hippiewannabe]

..In some cultures a parent mastubating their child to sleep is perfectly normal.
And with America being a melting pot, theyre here..

Wait....WHAT?

In which cultures is this perfectly normal?

[Amskeptic]

..In some cultures a parent mastubating their child to sleep is perfectly normal.
And with America being a melting pot, theyre here..

Wait....WHAT?

In which cultures is this perfectly normal?

Many cultures with more ancient roots than modern industrialized cultures. Margaret Mead wrote of them I think. And if those cultural norms do not gag a child with shame and guilt, fine! The Sandusky case is on a totally different page, and you know it.

And yes, Spezialist, within a culture's accepted norms, the example you bring is not an overpowering and shameful secret like what that guy Sandusky did to a kid who indeed does live in our culture, and has been utterly traumatized within our cultural norms.

I am not a sensationalistic hysteric, I am not judging Sandusky in the eyes of God, but I am damn sure that this guy and his history has been one of psychological coercion and abuse of power and, most damning in my book of values, utterly fucking devoid of any sort of elemental empathy. That will not be found in our law books, but I am glad he ended up on the wrong side of the laws we do have and I hope he is taken away for a seriously long time.
Colin

[hippiewannabe]

Well, OK then. I should have consulted Google first (staggers away, gobsmacked).

“Western observers even today often notice that Japanese mothers masturbate their young children during the day in public and at night in the family bed-in order, they say, "to put them to sleep”[17]. The average Japanese mother sleeps with her children until they are ten or fifteen years old, traditionally sleeping “skin-to-skin” (dakine) while embracing her child because the father-as in the traditional gynarchy-is usually absent, over two-thirds of Japanese husbands being involved in extramarital intercourse[18]. Japanese mothers often teach their sons how to masturbate, helping them achieve first ejaculation in much the same manner as with toilet training[19]. A “mental health hotline” in Tokyo recently reported being flooded with calls about incest, 29 percent of them with complaints such as that the mother would offer her body for sex while telling the son, “You cannot study if you cannot have sex. You may use by body”, or “I don’t want you to get into trouble with a girl. Have sex with me instead”[20]. Wagatsuma reports “Japanese mothers often exhibit an obsession with their sons’ penises...[they are] usually brought in by their mothers who fear that their sons’ penises are abnormally small”[21], with the result that Japanese marriage clinics find “60 percent of their patients are afflicted with the 'no-touch syndrome”, that is, they will have no physical contact with their wives for fear that it will lead to sex...[termed] the “I love mommy' complex[22]” Adams and Hill and Rosenman have thoroughly documented the castration anxieties resulting from Japanese maternal incest[23]”.

DeMause (1994/1998; cf. 1991)[24] further argues:

“Childhood in contemporary Japan—although somewhat more Western than that of other Eastern nations—still includes masturbation by mothers "to put them to sleep." Parents usually have intercourse with the children in bed with them; and "co-sleeping," with parents physically embracing the child, often continues until the child is ten or fifteen. One recent Japanese study found daughters sleeping with their fathers over 20 percent of the time after age 16. Recent sex surveys report memories of sexual abuse even higher than comparable American studies. "Hot lines" of sexual abuse report mother-son incest in almost a third of the calls, the mother saying to her teenage son, "It’s not good to do it alone. Your IQ becomes lower. I will help you," or "You cannot study if you cannot have sex. You may use my body," or "I don't want you to get into trouble with a girl. Have sex with me instead”.

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GESUN ... /JAPAN.HTM


Just because some people do it, doesn't make it normal, or acceptable.

[Amskeptic]

Just because some people do it, doesn't make it normal, or acceptable.

"Normal" and "acceptable" in this culture comes with huge helpings of Judgmentalism against other cultures' norms. I disagree with that. I do not judge Japanese mothers half so harshly as Sandusky, because IF you are on the side of abnormal in your own cultural context, you will use secrecy, coercion, shame, power, exploitation, etc. THAT is damaging to a ten year-old in America, not to mention whatever physical injury that son-of-a-bitch Sandusky caused.
Colin

[Spezialist]

Colin, what Sandusky did or didnt do and his intentions will never be understood until we can understand that he was probably molested as a young man also.
I'm not excusing him, but we must understand the context fully.
To underline my piont further, it is highly UNLIKELY he had what we consider a normal childhood,
And to illustrate that further,

http://www.traumacenter.org/products/pd ... h_hush.pdf


Research for male survivors is scant, and treatment is basically nonexistent.

Again I'm not excusing Sandustky, or any Adult for these actions.

[Amskeptic]

Colin, what Sandusky did or didnt do and his intentions will never be understood until we can understand that he was probably molested as a young man also.
I'm not excusing him, but we must understand the context fully.
To underline my piont further, it is highly UNLIKELY he had what we consider a normal childhood,
Research for male survivors is scant, and treatment is basically nonexistent.
Again I'm not excusing Sandustky, or any Adult for these actions.

I am with you on all counts above.

There was a tragedy in Sandusky's own patterning, I have no doubt. There is a tragedy that no one picked up on it when he was a victim.

As an intelligent successful sentient being, however, Sandusky was making a personally informed decision to gratify his own impulses and made it his life's inner work. Not only does he deserve what's coming, I think his soul may welcome it after a lifetime of lies.

There are some human beings who wake up to startling impulses or even teenage inappropriate interaction or whatever, and they seek help against the odds of social approbation or their own shame. His buying affections and fronting charities and threatening his victims puts him in another category entirely. He is nowhere near near conscious enough to understand what he has done . . . yet.
Colin