Jeebus, aNOTHer pot thread?

[Velokid1]

You are sensitive and easily offended, Highlander. I've noticed that for a few weeks now, before you ever gave me anything to disagree with.

The exchanges in this thread aren't a matter of me trying to hammer someone who disagrees with me into submission. The fact of the matter is that I have spent a lot of time educating myself on the issues surrounding marijuana and have had some really great, lengthy/ongoing discussions with some of the people on the forefront of the fight, both pro-cannabis and pro-prohibition folks.

If you don't like the discussion, don't click on the thread. Makes more sense than reverting to the oh-so-tired accusation of groupthink whenever you're in a room where you opinion is outnumbered.

Besides... did you even notice that I was the only one arguing my point and that, if I were inclined to be a whiner myself, I could claim that you and BellePlaine were ganging up on me. Wouldn't that be more like groupthink?

[turk]

It's so obvious. The Group Think is a contagion that goes around here. There are a few who keep the virus alive and generously retransmit it all the time. Glasseye is one, despite his claim of having facts and well-defended arguments. His usual tact is the group sneer. That would be squaring to consensus with some petty personal attack, but no other point. Let me re-describe that with an example for benefit of GE's slow learning curve: That would be making a post, or a comment within a post aimed at someone personally, but nothing relevant to what topic was being discussed. An example would be just recently, GE thought it would be appropriate to respond to this non sequitur:

And the elephant is most like a snake. Long, thin, bony, but with a tuft of hair at the end.


neal

with this:

You go, neal. It looks like you're the Last Man Standing. : )

And this despite GE claims to have me on "IGNORE", so he didn't have the slightest idea of context, especially considering the non-sequitur.
So, that kind of comment has no purpose than mutual self congratulation, AKA Group Think. Get it?

[Velokid1]

Be sure to visit the link and watch the video footage.

http://blog.mpp.org/video/video-utah-ma ... /01202011/

VIDEO: Utah Man Killed in Outrageous Police Raid

by John Berry
January 20, 2011

Shocking. That’s the only word that comes to mind when seeing the video of Todd Blair, 45, gunned down by armed police storming his home on a no-knock raid in Utah last September. Blair, no doubt surprised by the sound of yelling and having his door kicked in, emerges from an interior doorway holding a golf club over his head. Before Blair can react, Sgt. Troy Burnett shoots him three times and Blair slumps to the floor dead.

No “drop the weapon,” no “get down on the ground,” just bang!, bang!, bang! It’s a chilling scene that’s over before it started, and all the police found was a small amount of marijuana and an empty vial alleged to have contained other drugs.

This type of raid won’t come as a surprise to regular readers of our blog, of course. We see these stories all the time because they’re playing out every day in this country at an alarming rate. Lives are ruined and lost, and for what? A few grams of marijuana? It’s just another—albeit outrageous—example of how prohibition has failed as a policy at every conceivable turn. If videos like this aren’t a sure sign that it’s time to end marijuana prohibition and adopt sensible polices like taxation and regulation, then I’m not sure what is.

[Velokid1]

Why Are Some Cops So Hostile to Marijuana Policy Reform?

by Morgan Fox
January 19, 2011

This article by Rob Kampia was recently in Huffington Post:

A few years ago, when the Marijuana Policy Project was lobbying the Minnesota legislature to pass a modest medical marijuana bill, the state prosecutors association led the opposition. Rank-and-file police from the Twin Cities left their beats to fill up committee hearing rooms — in uniform, with handguns strapped to their waists — in an attempt to intimidate the state legislators on the committees.

And law enforcement lied, lied, lied, so much so that we started distributing daily “Law Enforcement Lie of the Day” videos to all state legislators and political reporters in the state. We also slammed the leading local prosecutor’s office with phone calls from angry constituents; he privately threatened to arrest us for “obstructing justice.” I almost wish he had arrested us so that he would have had to explain why trying to help sick people interferes with justice, but he didn’t.

For a couple years, it was all-out warfare, but we finally passed a medical marijuana bill through the legislature in May 2009, only to see Gov. Tim Pawlenty (R) veto the bill, saying he preferred to “stand with law enforcement.”

State prosecutors, police, sheriffs, and attorneys general — not to mention federal DEA and FBI agents — are almost universally opposed to marijuana policy reform measures in every state, to the point where they actually spend time and taxpayer money campaigning and lobbying against us. Why?

1. IGNORANCE: For the most part, rank-and-file cops aren’t trained scientists or policy experts. They don’t spend much time reading medical studies or public policy analyses, and they generally don’t have much knowledge about the issue beyond how it directly affects their jobs. When presented with such information, they tend to listen to the people they encounter most in their work. Unfortunately, those people are almost always government officials or those with a vested interest in keeping marijuana illegal, such as drug treatment specialists. Since this information comes from “trusted sources,’ it’s usually accepted as fact, and differing viewpoints are therefore ignored.

2. JOB SECURITY: Before MPP helped decriminalize marijuana possession in Massachusetts in November 2008, we learned that marijuana-possession arrests accounted for 6% of all arrests in that state each year. So, to some extent, law enforcement was opposing our ballot initiative because they were concerned that some of them might need to be laid off if there were fewer “criminals” to arrest and prosecute. As for me, I never thought that 6% of law enforcement would be laid off; more likely, we were freeing up law enforcement to go after real criminals. Which leads me to…

3. QUALITY OF LIFE: According to the FBI, 48 law-enforcement officers nationwide were feloniously killed in the line of duty in 2009, and none of these were killed by enforcing drug laws. It makes sense that going after murderers would be more dangerous than sniffing under college students’ doors. But policing exists to make society safer, and hunting down nonviolent marijuana users at the expense of thousands of unsolved assaults, rapes, and murders does nothing to accomplish this.

4. COGNITIVE DISSONANCE: It’s hard for any person to change his or her political opinion after years of believing that opinion. So you can imagine how it would be even harder to change your opinion on an issue after you’ve ruined the lives of hundreds or thousands of people by arresting them on that issue. In other words, once a cop arrests marijuana users, testifies against them in court, and moves up the political food chain because of all this, it’s almost impossible for that cop to then declare, “I was wrong.”

Thankfully, there’s an organization of principled law enforcement professionals who are neither ignorant, self-serving, nor mentally calcified. I’m talking about Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, an organization that deserves your wholehearted support.

And there is another ray of hope: When I talk to cops on the beat in the District of Columbia, where I live, I ask them, “What’s the worst crime you usually have to deal with?” They almost always answer, “Domestic violence.” I ask, “Is marijuana involved in that?” They laugh and say, “Never. It’s almost always alcohol.” So should marijuana be decriminalized, or maybe even legalized? “Probably, but the higher-ups would never go for that,” they say.

So there you have it: There are plenty of police officers who see the futility and unfairness of marijuana prohibition up close, but most law enforcement officials with real authority support marijuana prohibition. Why the discrepancy?

The most obvious explanation is that the higher-ups are (1) more likely to be appointed or hired by mayors and city councils, and (2) responsible for presenting departmental budgets to those politicians every year. So perhaps there’s a fifth reason why so many law enforcement officials are hostile…

5. FEAR OF OUT-OF-TOUCH POLITICIANS: Politicians are far behind the public when it comes to understanding the harms of marijuana prohibition. Whether politicians are afraid of being perceived as “soft on crime,” of sticking their necks out on what is still a fairly contentious issue, or of offending particular special interest groups, opposition remains high among elected representatives. Law enforcement officials looking for bigger budgets and better jobs will echo these politicians ad nauseum, providing them with political cover and legitimacy. And there we have a self-perpetuating cycle.

This is why it’s important to engage law enforcement on this issue at every opportunity. Whether it is the cop on your corner or the chief of police, opening the dialogue is vitally important.

[Velokid1]

Hmm. Where's the Tea Party on this one? It can't be cheap to conduct an air raid on a marijuana garden using Blackhawk helis.

Guess the Tea Party will let the ACLU do the dirty work on this one.

National Guard in Federal Raid Raises Questions


On Nov. 30, the Drug Enforcement Agency raided a facility in Meridian Township. Along with ground forces, the Michigan National Guard provided two Blackhawk helicopters to assist in the operation.


The facility was a joint growing operation by several registered patient caregivers. The caregivers decided to rent the facility to grow medical marijuana for their patients, and remove the drug from their homes.
Dave Clark, an Okemos attorney representing one of the patient caregivers, told the City Pulse that his client and the others had done nothing illegal.


“We were surprised there was even a warrant. Everything inside was legal under state law,” Clark said. “I’m sure it was 100 percent legal.”
Clark and his client were not the only ones surprised by the raid. Meridian Township Police Chief Dave Hall tells Michigan Messenger that his department was never informed of the raid by federal authorities. Traditionally, when a law enforcement agency is going to be engaged in an action in another jurisdiction, they let the law enforcement from that jurisdiction know. This is done to prevent sending officers to the scene of a police action because of 9-1-1 calls.


United States District Attorney Rene Shekmer of the Western District in Grand Rapids told the City Pulse that the raid was conducted at several locations, and agents seized 400 plants, as well as growing equipment.
“Under federal law, there is no exemption for medical marijuana. Under Michigan law, there are limits and rules you have to follow,” Shekmer told the City Pulse. “As a broad brush, it does not appear they were (state-compliant) because of the number of plants.”


Feds are also seeking information from the Michigan Department of Community Health about several medical marijuana caregivers. It is widely believed this subpoena, issued in June, is directed at the caregivers involved in the Meridian Township growing operation.


But that conflict over whether or not the facilities were following Michigan law, also raises the questions about why the Michigan National Guard participated in the operation.


“Our helicopters do not support action in violation of state laws. A warrant authorizing Guard air support was issued for the Meridian Township mission. We supported the mission,” says Angela Simpson, deputy public information officer for the Michigan National Guard.


Simpson says in 2009 Guard assets were used to assist law enforcement in the seizure of 730,000 tablets of ecstasy, 607,865 pounds of illegal drugs (cocaine, heroin, hashish, crystal meth, opium, and others) and 107,480 pounds of marijuana. The counter-drug program’s focus is on prevention, education and apprehension support.


The Blackhawk helicopters, Simpson said, were not armed, nor were National Guard personnel.


Simpson also released an 80 page document from the Secretary of Defense which is the basis for the Guard’s involvement in federal government operations. Under those standing orders, Simpson says, the Guard can assist when presented with a warrant. Civilian leadership is not required to be briefed on those actions, or to approve them.


Those orders also authorize the deployment of Guard units and assets in drug interdiction actions and outline specific rules of engagement including lethal force to protect lives.


Former Gov. Jennifer Granholm’s office said last month that Granholm supported the actions of the National Guard, but declined to answer any specific questions.


Gov. Rick Snyder’s office did not respond to multiple requests for comment on this situation.


The ACLU of Michigan says it is too early to tell if the use of National Guard assets was legal, or if the DEA was right to conduct the raid.


“This situation seems to raise more questions than answers. The federal government has a policy of not enforcing federal marijuana laws where state medical marijuana laws are being followed,” said Dan Korobkin, ACLU of Michigan staff attorney. “However, if a grow operation is being conducted outside of the confines of the MMMA, federal law enforcement may have reason to investigate and act.”

Source: American Independent (NC)
Author: Todd A. Heywood
Published: January 6, 2011
Copyright: 2011 The American Independent News Network
Contact: editor@americanindependent.com
Website: http://www.americanindependent.com/

[glasseye]

It's so obvious. The Group Think is a contagion that goes around here.

And this despite GE claims to have me on "IGNORE", so he didn't have the slightest idea of context, especially considering the non-sequitur.
So, that kind of comment has no purpose than mutual self congratulation, AKA Group Think. Get it?

So, it's us against you? Is that how it appears?

The "ignore" function appears to have disappeared as a result of the upgrade. So now, it's up to me who I ignore.

Posting, however remains problematic for me, not because I don't know what to say, but because the forum software and my computers are agreeing to disagree.

[vdubyah73]

can't ignore a moderator, HA.

[Velokid1]

No, you can't ignore anybody now. The forums were upgraded see.

[Westy78]

No, you can't ignore anybody now. The forums were upgraded see.

You can. It's called friends and foes in your user control panel. You just can't do it directly from a thread anymore. Still can't ignore a mod though.

[glasseye]

OK. Perhaps "ignore" (and, worse, publicizing "ignore") was an antisocial function. Since "ignore" has been made less easy to do, let's assume that the forum software authors are sending us a subliminal message. For now, compliance is easy.

That out of the way, returning to our favourite subject:

Why is it that LEOs have a voice in the re-legalization debate? Aren't they supposed to just enforce the laws? How is it that they're allowed an opinion? (as LEOs, of course. As private citizens, they're allowed any opinion they wish.)

[Velokid1]

True.

I had a really interesting conversation with a cop friend (aquaintance really) today about this. Mind you, this is just one cop's opinion, but he's a level-headed guy and actually runs the local organic coffee roaster. He has been on the force for 14 yrs now.

He said, truth is that cops tend to think of everyone in the world as falling into one of two categories: cops or stupid criminals. They tend to view everyone as a criminal; some of us just haven't gotten caught yet. He also explained it as: cops see all of us as children. They're the adults and we are all children in need of guidance and discipline.

That's just one person's view but I have to say that based on my interactions with cops, for the majority of them, this assessment "feels" accurate.

[Velokid1]

What is wrong with us that we take something like drug consumption, a personal lifestyle choice, and build up a governmental policy so dead set against it that we are willing to think busting down doors and shooting people on site is in any way "justifiable"? We don't bust down doors and shoot people who swindle billions of dollars like Madoff, no, we call his lawyer and request he turn himself in.

We shouldn't be kicking down doors and drawing down on anyone, unless someone's life might be in immediate danger, like a kidnapping or something. No judge should be able to issue any piece of paper that says a citizen's domicile can be forceable entered and a weapon of deadly force to be used at the discretion of an agent of the government, based on the suspicion of a non-violent crime, period.

Property and privacy rights are the bedrock of our society, what the hell is up with shitting on that concept because of a plant?

[vdubyah73]

OK. Perhaps "ignore" (and, worse, publicizing "ignore") was an antisocial function. Since "ignore" has been made less easy to do, let's assume that the forum software authors are sending us a subliminal message. For now, compliance is easy.

That out of the way, returning to our favourite subject:

Why is it that LEOs have a voice in the re-legalization debate? Aren't they supposed to just enforce the laws? How is it that they're allowed an opinion? (as LEOs, of course. As private citizens, they're allowed any opinion they wish.)

Of course you realize that most cops are in a union and that unions have been allowed political activity for far longer than corporations. Plus it's about budgets. If the war on drugs was to end, budgets would be cut. Congress should enact a law barring unions and corps from political spending. Neither are people, they are both pushing agendas that are to their own benefit.

[glasseye]

I read an article on the NYT somewhere that was written by a cop entitled "Pot Pays My Mortgage". Basically, overtime billings that resulted from busting someone right at the end of a cop's shift was easy money. Stood my hair on end.

[RSorak 71Westy]

Ever heard of LEAP?
http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php